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Julie Duffy Dillon (00:00)

Hey there, welcome to episode 416 of the Find Your Food Voice podcast. I am Julie Duffy Dillon, registered dietitian and your host. Welcome to the podcast where we help you find ways to move away from diets and continue to recover from your eating disorder. Today’s episode is with Becca King. Becca King is the ADHD nutritionist over on Instagram and she just published a book about non-diet ways to eat with ADHD.

So I invited her on again, she was actually on the podcast back in 2022. And this episode in particular, we are putting together ADHD and PCOS because they go together so frequently. And this episode ended up being a really, really great episode in my opinion, selfishly, I loved it because I always learned so much from Becca. And we talked a lot about different types of eating styles that the two of us see with PCOS and ADHD. And we like talk about these different styles and ways that you can specifically, you identify as one of these eating styles, ways to intervene in a non-diet way. In particular, we also talk about selective eating with ADHD and PCOS. And I mentioned in the episode that I have worked with a lot of clients who have PCOS and also have this very kind of selective eating. Sometimes people will commonly call this picky eating and I don’t know, there’s something different about than just picky eating. There’s also a layer of anxiety that I see with this. So we talk a lot about that experience, but it’s something we both have seen a lot of with clients. We’re of course gonna talk about throughout the whole episode, how intuitive eating looks different with ADHD and PCOS. You can still do intuitive eating. Yes, you can find ways to rely on your body with these two conditions and it’s just gonna look different, that’s all. There’s gonna be ways that you can still reject diets. We’re also gonna talk about some different types of hungers and reasons for eating that Becca has identified that are unique to ADHDers. So I’m excited for you to catch that one. So before I get to my interview with Becca, just a few announcements. This is the summertime, of course, when I’m recording these episodes, actually just dropped my kids off at camp. So ⁓ it is full on summer.

And during the summer, my availability is different. Plus it’s summer, it’s time to slow down. So my team and I are just recording every two weeks. So after this episode, we’ll have another episode in two weeks. It’s actually going to be a group chat episode with Rachel and Coleen and we’re going to be talking about body changes in relationship. And then we’ll probably do group chat episodes and then interviews every other week and just kind of see how that goes. So, you know, come along for this ride. But I’m also spending a lot of time with my newsletter. So if you’ve been a part of my community for a while, you’re probably already on my email list. If you are not, you definitely want to join now because basically what I am wanting to do is write more. After publishing the Find Your Food Voice book back in March, I want to keep writing. I want to write another book. but you know, there’s a little bit of time between. And so the ⁓ email newsletter is how I’m continuing to write the Find Your Food Voice book. There’s so many things that didn’t make the book or parts of it that I wanna continue to dive deeper into. So join me there. You can get to it over my website, julieduffydillon.com. You can also get it on Substack, because that’s actually where I host it and it’s findyourfoodvoice.substack.com. And there I do live videos, I do essays. And it’s been a lot of fun. And yeah, I’m excited to bring you more just ways to reject diets, especially if you’re living with a chronic condition and you’re wanting to find ways to continue to promote health without dieting. I would love to be the one to help you out. So with that all being said, we’re gonna take a very quick sponsor break and then you will get to hear my interview with Becca King.

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:14)

Hey, Becca, welcome to the podcast. I am excited to have you on again. So I don’t know if the listeners remember, but yeah, back in I think 2022, right before I was pushed off Instagram because it was hacked. When I was like still saw you on my Instagram feed, you were on the podcast and answered a letter from someone who had ADHD and I think was maybe binge eating too. So.

Becca (04:16)

Hey Julie, thanks for having me.

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:42)

Since I haven’t had you on my radar, because I’m not on Instagram anymore, I saw that you publish a book on ADHD. And I was like, my gosh, we have to chat again. Yes.

Becca (04:49)

Yes. Yes. Yes. And I was so excited when you reached out. was like, yay, it’s been a while. I can’t wait to chat. So.

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:54)

I know. Well, and so for you listener, what we’re going to try to attempt is combining the ADHD PCOS experience. And if you have PCOS and don’t have ADHD, I think you’ll still get something out of it. I was thinking that a lot when I was reading your book. But also if you have ADHD, I think you also get something out of it, even if you don’t have PCOS. So let’s start there. Something actually I wanna start with that kind of is like more personal for you. I’m curious about this book. Like what was it like for you to write a book? Like, did you enjoy the experience? Did you not enjoy it? I don’t know, like.

Becca (05:36)

I definitely I think I enjoyed it because I was like, you know, I would probably still do this again, maybe just slightly like differently now that I know like what to expect. I think next time I would probably like find a way to like, have just very dedicated time and probably maybe even not be at my house to write it. Yeah, it is very distracting. ⁓ But yeah, it just it kind of reminded me of like,

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:42)

Yeah. It’s distracting. Yeah, home is distracting.

Becca (06:06)

I wrote a thesis in grad school, so it kind of reminded me of like those intense writing periods of time when I would sit and work on my thesis. So I think that helped a little bit to prepare me for it. But yeah, lot of juggling that and seeing clients was a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (06:13)

But that was really hard to do. Yeah. Well, you basically wrote a dissertation instead of a thesis with this book. So like, well done. I loved it. And we’ll talk more about it as we go through this. But ⁓ like I told you before we pushed record, there was, I was reading through this book. There were so many parts of it that my clients with ADHD and PCOS definitely will love it because it gets like right into like how to.

Julie Duffy Dillon (06:54)

work with your body and apply intuitive eating concepts with ADHD. like, so yeah, obviously people who have been diagnosed with ADHD are going to love it. But even if you haven’t, like, I don’t have ADHD. And I was like, Oh, I’m going to use this idea. I really like this. So I just wanted to put that out there. Like I thought that was really great. And something in particular that I found fascinating were the types of ADHD eaters that you describe in the book. Can we go through those? And I’m going to like, them up so I can kind of use them as we’re going through them. yeah, there’s like one, two, three, four, five, six. Is there six of them? Yes.

Becca (07:27)

Yeah, there is. Six of them. Yeah. Yeah, I just found it like helpful to like kind of personify a little bit each like different types of eaters that I see a lot ⁓ in my practice and having and then having it be a resource of like, if these are things you struggle with, these are gonna be the chapters in the book to like, that are helpful to reference. But it was something for me in my own eating disorder experience, kind of separating, like, that was something my therapist had kind of done with me of like personifying my eating disorder a little bit to like, separate myself from it. So I was like, this would be helpful to just have as like an understanding of like, hey, these are kind of the things that I struggle with.

 

Julie Duffy Dillon (07:51)

Yes. Okay. So let me just say, I love how you weaved in your story in this. Like, I think that was really great and well done because yeah, like it, it, it, there’s something about it. made it, de-stigmatizing in itself, just like seeing someone else experiencing something similar. And the thing that is really great about your book is that it is very like user friendly in that way. And like the different types of eating styles, is that what you call them? No ADHD eaters. ⁓ But yeah, because you’re like, go to chapter three, if you’re a grazer, like this is where you know, go next. So it makes it really user friendly, you don’t have to like start at page one and go all the way through the book, you know. So yeah. No.

Becca (08:43)

Yes. Yeah. And it’s not just a recipe book, that’s something else I’ve gotten a lot on social media because it has a little recipe icon on it. So people like, it’s a cookbook. And I’m like, it ⁓ has a chapter, there’s 40 recipes in it, but there’s also eight other chapters on lots of good stuff.

Julie Duffy Dillon (09:03)

No, this has so much more meat to it. ⁓ the recipes are like a bonus to me. You know, when I was looking through them, they’re great. mean, and they and I’m not someone who loves cooking, but I reading through it. was like, I want to make this. ⁓ But let’s start with the grazer. Can we go through that? Like, tell me about someone who identifies as a grazer.

Becca (09:19)

So a grazer would be someone I often find that these are like my clients who are especially if they’re diagnosed later in life a lot of the women I work with before they’re diagnosed they would probably describe themselves as like a grazer someone who’s basically kind of self-medicating with food. They’re always someone who’s snacking and When I say self-medicating, basically, they’re eating for stimulation and getting their brain that dopamine that they need. they’re, they’re probably someone who’s always kind of snacking. They might tell me that they don’t know that they’re not like, I never really feel hungry, but I always feel like I need to be eating to help myself finish this task or I’m eating to procrastinate so that I can go do something. Like it’s more like you’re probably eating to get your brain stimulations. You can start the So yeah, that would be someone who’s a grazer.

Becca (10:17)

They might not necessarily binge eat. lot of my clients do still binge eat, so they’re kind someone who’s grazing, also binge having, you know, also having some binge eating episodes mixed in there too.

Julie Duffy Dillon (10:27)

Mm hmm.

 

Yeah. And the way that I would see this with clients with PCOS too is ⁓ sometimes they would, my clients would be like eating through every, like eating through lunch, eating through snack time. And then they would just like eat something just to make the hunger go away enough. So like their blood sugar didn’t crash, you know, but they never got like full. Yeah.

Becca (10:43)

Yeah. Yep. Yeah So they’re just kind of in that like in between zone of things, but they’re not fully satiated. Yeah. Yeah. And especially if they’re restricting it’s like, I’m only letting myself have a little bit of this or a little bit of that or only letting myself have the, you know, the lowest calorie option or whatever of everything. And it’s not really what I always want to be eating.

Julie Duffy Dillon (10:49)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chronically dissatisfied. Yeah. And then feeling really ⁓ awful when binge eating happens, but like, it’s just because their body is like, I need a meal, you know? And then the binge restrict ⁓ type of eater is probably the most common that I’ve seen ⁓ for you too. Yeah, tell me about that.

Becca (11:15)

Yep, yeah. Mm hmm. Yep. Kind of that not eating enough during the day, whether that’s inconsistent eating patterns or literally like I maybe eat breakfast and I don’t eat again until like four or five in the you know, in the afternoon evening time. And then you’re I call it the hunger monster that comes out like when you are just so ravenous because you haven’t eaten and for a lot of 80s years, it’s like your meds, you know, we’re often that late afternoon evening time and you just get hit with this wall of hunger and you’re like, I’m ravenous. And that’s the quickest fastest thing I can get in my body right now.

Julie Duffy Dillon (11:39)

yes. my gosh, the day that like where medications are not effing with appetite will be a really great day for especially in my house with one of my kids on ADHD medication. And then we have the perfectionist, which I would bet a lot of people no matter what type of eating that they’re doing, there’s some perfectionism in there. But yeah, what do you see with this type?

Becca (12:06)

Always. Yeah, I would say this is someone who maybe they feel like they need to get eating like perfect and so they’re someone who might kind of get sucked in maybe like like dieting or like healthy eating becomes like their hyper focus type of thing. And obviously that can be like a pathway towards disordered eating and potentially an eating disorder. But they’re probably someone who’s like, I need to track everything I need to, you know, I need to meal prep and have all the, you know, being overly perfect, probably potentially even burning themselves out on, you know, I have a lot of clients who if they do that, they might not have like the spoons or the executive function to do other things in their life because feeding themselves actually becomes like a full time job. I definitely feel like when I was in grad school that that was how I was a little bit because like I’m gonna be a dietician, you know, like I gotta be super healthy. And it was it. Yeah, right. Like and you’re like, oh, I have to be all into this. And it was like looking back and like

Julie Duffy Dillon (13:02)

Mm-hmm. Right. That was it. Yeah, you’re paying tuition for that hyper fixation. Yeah. Yeah.

Becca (13:26)

when I get home from my internship, I would probably, you know, spend over an hour every evening cooking dinner. And I’m like, I don’t have the energy for that anymore. Like that’s not realistic for my life. I like look back and like, how did I do that? And like, I also had a really messed up relationship with food. So it makes sense. I felt like I needed to do that. And now I’m like, I don’t feel like I need to make every single thing from scratch. You know, I’m gonna make my life easier.

Julie Duffy Dillon (13:33)

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I would appreciate that would be a really tough one to move away from. Like it would become so rigid. ⁓ And also like self identifying or like, you know, that’s just part of an identity at some point. Like you’re the healthy eater.

Becca (13:58)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it would backfire because then I would still end up binging. you know, it’d be like I’m eating perfectly. And then at some point, it’s like I can’t take it anymore. I’m, you know, binge eating and feeling bad about myself. So. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:09)

Yes. Yes. And thank God for binging. I always am like, thank God those exist because otherwise, the body just couldn’t continue with that little amount. ⁓ I loved reading about the next one, The Takeout King or Queen, which I have teenagers at home. So this is something that is pretty common at my house. ⁓ I get door dash instead of what are you making for dinner? I mean, that has come up many times. And I think about my clients that I used to work with in high school, college age. mean, that was like, almost like a rite of passage, like relying on takeout food. ⁓ And I would often try to tell the parents like, hey, you know, this is an experimentation time. And, you know, let’s figure out a way to like weave it in. Yes. So what do you see with with this? Because I would imagine with ADHD, this is like, has something to do more that it’s not just like experimenting with different food, it’s other it’s something else causing it.

Becca (14:47)

Yeah, like some of the executive functioning piece of the puzzle, like, obviously ordering something on an app is a lot easier than planning out what we’re gonna have and then spending the time prepping it and all of that. And if you’re just waiting until you’re hungry to eat a lot of times, it’s like, I can’t cook a meal right now. I’m just gonna, know, door dash some food or I’m exhausted. And I just you know, I got home from work and I don’t have the capacity to make dinner. So I’m just gonna order takeout, even though a lot of times my clients will share like eating takeout all the time. Like this doesn’t make me feel good. And so they’re like, and so it can feel frustrating too, because it’s like, this isn’t, I know this doesn’t feel good for me. But I’m not struggling to like, you know, actually be able to follow through with like, I might buy the groceries to make the things but then they go bad because I just don’t get around to making them, you know.

Julie Duffy Dillon (15:42)

yeah, yeah, people have told me they felt like so rundown, like just they’re probably not getting some micronutrients that’s making them feel pretty awful. And ⁓ something in the book that I like is like the section about like, you know, getting back into the kitchen and like doing meal planning. And it’s like anti diet meal planning to big win. Thank you.

Becca (16:11)

Yeah, I like, cannot tell people to meal like meal plan in a very diety way because it’s not going to work.

Julie Duffy Dillon (16:29)

No, absolutely not. And that’s something that’s really big for us on the show. The Rachel Popik who’s listening as ⁓ my podcast assistant right now. Hey Rachel, ⁓ she’s ⁓ a chef and an anti-diet chef. And so we talk a lot about like anti-diet meal prep, making sure you have enough food instead of like, let’s make sure you don’t eat too much, which I feel like is like the basis of meal prep.

Becca (16:41)

Yeah. Yeah, everyone’s like, if you do this, then you can control your eating when it’s like, this means I actually have, can feel comfortable that like I have food in my fridge to eat off of throughout the week.

Julie Duffy Dillon (16:58)

Like give your future self a high five and, and, you know, say like, here, I made it easy for you. And I would imagine many people listening again, whether they have ADHD or not, would identify as a takeout queen or king. And is there something that you recommend to folks like that is like the first step to get away from that kind of style?

Becca (17:29)

a good question. I think maybe finding a couple things that are really, really low effort to make to start off like we’re thinking about things that maybe it’s like, you know, maybe it’s literally like making some chicken tenders at home and like, yeah, like, and it’s like maybe like that in a salad kit and like, you know, some microwave rice or like some potatoes or something but like

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:33)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, I’m frozen chicken tenders. I love that. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.

Becca (17:53)

I think easing yourself into it and maybe it’s like I’m only gonna make one meal a week if you’re eating like almost all your meals out maybe it’s like one meal a week I’m gonna start with instead of like I’m gonna be cooking dinner like starting now I’m cooking from home and I’m not eating out because that’s yeah because that’s super overwhelming like I it’s just not not gonna work and then you’re gonna feel bad because you bought all the groceries and didn’t make anything so like start small

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:55)

I see the perfectionism. Yeah, that’s too much. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I see like the patterns like the I can even see like the binge restrict pattern in that kind of statement of like an all or nothing kind of experience like getting all the groceries and then they go bad because it’s just was too much. And then the shame just floods in and yeah, that that’s awful. Yes. Yes, yeah.

Becca (18:24)

Yeah, and then you’re like, I’m never doing that again. like any, you know, like, see, I can’t do this. Or I can’t like feeling like you can’t be an adult. That’s like something or you’re not like being an adult by feeding yourself the way other people do. That’s part of what I hope people get out of the book is that like, you don’t have to feed yourself the way maybe everybody else does. And that doesn’t make you any less of an adult or any less capable or whatever, whatever standards they’re holding yourself to. It’s not, you know,

Julie Duffy Dillon (18:47)

Yeah. Yes. I’m like thinking about too, there’s very few books that I’ve read that help people like learn some basic skills in the kitchen without it being either like too overwhelming, ⁓ like using saffron and some kind of weird instrument, you know, ⁓ and then don’t also start where people need to start. Like if someone’s been relying on takeout food, fast food or like just relying on that to have an expectation to like make things from scratch is just too much. know, like you said, using like frozen foods or part of the meal, make it home. And I love that so much. And there was a book that I remember using myself when I, cause I’ve never liked cooking ever. And when my first kid was born, my ex-husband was the one who like would be working and like stay, he normally would cook, but then, He would work late, so I started needing to cook and I was like, crap, now I need to figure this thing out. And I was already a dietitian, so it was kind of funny. But Ellyn Satter has a book ⁓ that’s like feeding healthy families or something. the first two thirds of the book talk about different things like eating competence for adults, basically. But then the last third of it is like getting used to being in the kitchen, like going from like takeout reliant to like eating. And she did, she talked about like…

Julie Duffy Dillon (20:28)

buy canned food, frozen food, make part of the meal, take out part of it, things from home. And I was like, this is exactly what I needed. And then eventually I like just started to like not have to rely on recipes and like, I don’t know, I got more like comfortable in the kitchen. And somebody else who’s writing a book right now that I think also is gonna talk about that, I need to see, I need to find out when her book’s coming out, is Christyna Johnson. She’s also writing a book. ⁓ Which since you’re on Instagram, you may know more about what it’s coming out. But she talked about including that as well. So I’m so glad both of you are doing that. Like we needed like an updated version because Ellyn Satter’s book is at least 20 years old now. ⁓ So yeah, if you listen or like needing practical ways to like get cooking, this is a great book. Whether you’re neurodivergent or not, like I think so many people will be able to benefit from this like avenue of helping.

Julie Duffy Dillon (21:24)

Anyway, so we were talking about the takeout king and queen, but let’s move to the selective eater. Yeah.

Becca (21:27)

Yeah. Yes. So this would be probably what other people might label like picky eater, but, but try to not necessarily use that language because that’s just doesn’t sound very, very great. So saying someone’s a little bit more selective. someone who probably has more sensory sensitivities that tends to be common, I would imagine we don’t have a lot of research on it yet. But I have feeling that like our fit will in folks with ADHD will become much like more prevalent, the more that that gets screened for. I think it’s usually talked about more with autistic folks, but I see it a lot. So with ADHD, or is it having just a lot of sensory issues or having really bad experiences with food and then developing a lot of aversions to things. So those will be folks who probably struggle with their intake or maybe get told they eat like a kid or, you know, they like a lot of beige and bland foods and those kinds of things, because they’re safe foods for them. They might rely more on processed foods too, ⁓ because they’re predictable and reliable. yeah, and like, I don’t think some people understand that experience of like how it can be very dysregulating almost to like, bite into fresh food and it not be what you expect it to be. And that’s really hard. Like blueberries are a great example of that that people often use of like, sometimes they’re sweet, sometimes they’re sour, sometimes they’re mushy, sometimes they’re firm. And like, I only eat frozen blueberries pretty much because I know they will be pretty much they’re pretty consistent. So it’s like,  Yeah, it’s, it can be hard to feed yourself when that that happens, obviously, or you feel limited to and there’s a lot of shame that comes with that usually from other people of like, whether it’s parents pushing food onto kids or having that shame even into adulthood of like, I don’t like to eat a lot of vegetables or, you know, whatever and feeling a lot of guilt or shame.

Julie Duffy Dillon (23:15)

Yes, like you were saying earlier, like it’s like a sign of being a grownup when you eat your vegetables and that kind of BS. ⁓ So something, I don’t know if I’ve talked about it in a long time on this podcast, but ⁓ something that I saw really frequently working with people with PCOS is this type of selective eating. And what I often saw it occurring with was really intense anxiety. And PCOS anxiety in my experience is like no other, it’s like, all the tips and tricks that people talk about with anxiety, all the medications that help everybody else, they don’t even like, they, no, they don’t even touch it. And this selective eating, I see with it too. That along with having sleep anxiety, having trouble falling asleep, and that kind of is the package that I saw. And it wasn’t the most common occurrence of eating stuff with PCOS, but I definitely like, it was this kind of package I would see together. so, yeah, and what I found, just like you said, I’m so glad that you put it in writing. It’s okay if you rely on these frozen foods or these foods that are bland to be predictable. there was so much, by the time someone would see me, they had so much shame because they were adults.

Julie Duffy Dillon (24:58)

And people were like, why are you eating that? Or like, why are you just eating these foods? And there’s no color on your plate. But like they had gone through decades with so much anxiety that I don’t think people would ever be able to survive. So like, if you need to eat chicken nuggets every day for lunch, this is great. Like you’re getting enough nutrition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not skipping lunch. Let’s take the W for this. Yes.

Becca (25:05)

Yeah, I’m like, eating lunch regularly? We’re not skipping lunch? Like, yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (25:26)

⁓ So yeah, I was really happy to see that. And I would be interested to see, yeah, like the, I think ARFID is just getting talked about more period, even the last year. So.

Becca (25:33)

But yeah, yeah, I think like the last couple years have finally started to see it get talked about more and not just in a like, usually it’s talked about with kids and seeing it’s nice to see it also getting talked about more with adults. They’re like, you just kind of like it’s kind of like with ADHD or they like you just grow out of it. And that’s like, no, like, what other eating disorders do you just grow out of like, there’s not that. How? Yeah, like, that’s not how

Julie Duffy Dillon (25:44)

It’s a phase. Yeah.

Becca (26:02)

this works. ⁓ So yeah. Yeah. Clearly someone did not has not experienced an eating disorder who’s making writing newspapers because we’re giving this advice because it’s not. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (26:04)

Wow, wow, such ignorance. ⁓ it’s really sad how many people in power that make really big decisions, if they don’t understand something that they do, just label things like phases or something you grew out of or something, just because they don’t get it. Yeah.

Becca (26:30)

Yeah, or like, yeah, and it just, yeah. And you’re like, that doesn’t help anyone. Yeah. And I think sometimes I’m like, can you at least try and put yourself in their shoes? Like that’s where I feel like it’s missing. Sometimes I’m like, just imagine being in their like scenario, not like just coming from your lived experience, because it’s not gonna be helpful for them.

Julie Duffy Dillon (26:38)

Yes, yes. And you know, that’s like a dill, a dill, no, a hill that I will die on is until dietetics is more accessible, I will be fine with people working with like health coaches and stuff because like, there’s so many people with like lived experience that will never be able to access the credentials as a dietitian, especially now they have to get even like a master’s degree. ⁓ Yeah, so like including people with lived experience who can help a person understand. think that would help people understand ARFID more. Yeah, so listener, you relate.

Becca (27:25)

Yeah. And then it’s okay, it’s like, everyone’s allowed to have food preferences too. It’s like, you know, like we all don’t have to eat the same things. It’s okay if you might have a very strong food preferences of things you really don’t like or things you really like. And then there might be other people who are like, I’ll eat anything, you know? And that’s we do, so.

Julie Duffy Dillon (27:31)

Yes. And I think our world kind of like celebrating or like talking more about extroverts instead of introverts. I think that’s how it is with like food too. If you’re like super into like trying new foods and like don’t care if the berry is sweet or tart or firm or mushy, you know, if you are like super into like trying new things, like that’s considered like better. So I hate it.

 

Becca (27:54)

Yeah, which is yeah, it’s like you don’t have to be. I hope people don’t I want people to not hate food, but I want them, you know, like to feel new, like at least neutral with food. Like it makes me sad when people like if I could just have like take a pill and never eat, that makes me sad. I’m like, you know, you’ve had some really awful experiences with food and you’re probably and possibly your body that make you feel that way. And that makes me really sad. I’m like, I hope you can at least get to a place where you’re just like neutral with food, you don’t have to love it or be a foodie or anything like that. But I hope you can at least not feel like food is this big burden, you know.

Julie Duffy Dillon (28:45)

You know, the people that I think about who have this like selective eating with their PCOS and ADHD, they have so many like interesting experiences and ideas and like careers. So it’s like, it’s just not in the food, you know? It’s just not their thing. Yes. Right. Exactly. So interesting.

Becca (29:00)

Yeah, yeah, it’s not there. They have other things they’re more interested in and that’s totally OK.

Julie Duffy Dillon (29:14)

So the intuitive eater, that’s the last one. Let’s talk about that one.

Becca (29:15)

Yes. Yes. So that was kind of my like, you know, ⁓ kind of my gateway into like, what is intuitive eating? Yeah, so like kind of being like, hey, this is what into like, what it can look like to have a healthy relationship with food as an ADHD, or is kind of what I wanted to be the last ADHD eater, like this is what your relationship with food can look like or could look like. So

Julie Duffy Dillon (29:23)

Yes, I love the gateway. Let’s go through it. Well, what makes intuitive being different with ADHD? Because that’s something that I noticed with PCOS like 20 years ago when I was like first starting to work with intuitive eating. was like, there’s, need to make some tweaks here. So what tweaks have you noticed that you need to make with ADHD? like, or is it just like hitting things differently from a different angle?

Becca (29:52)

Yeah, I would say a little bit like hitting it from a different angle, but also just kind of like, I think people think that intuitive eating is like, purely just listening to my body and that it Yeah, and I think for a lot of ADHD years, that’s like, I really don’t feel like I can listen to my body. So I, or that, you know, their body’s unreliable. So it’s like, okay, we might need some more external things to maybe cue us to eat. And that doesn’t mean that you’re not

Julie Duffy Dillon (30:12)

Yeah, yeah, that’s a misunderstanding. Yeah.

Becca (30:31)

eating intuitively, it’s understanding kind of like, my body isn’t giving me reliable hunger cues because I’m medicated or I get really hyper focused and I lose track of time. So I need something to interrupt me and cue me to eat or I will go, you know. really long times without eating. I think that can be something that might be a little little tweak because I think in intuitive eating they ⁓ it is like, you don’t have reliable hunger cues because you’ve been dieting and restricting. And once you stop doing that, you know, like your hunger cues will become more reliable. And for some ADHDers that might not not happen. And so I think have knowing that like, I might need these other ways to help cue myself to eat ⁓ and things like that can be be one one of things and I would add like in there like eating for stimulation, kind of have added that as like an extra type of hunger, like how they talk about in the book intuitively in the different forms of hunger. I kind of made eating for stimulation its own type of hunger because it does feel like that for people with ADHD. It can kind of feel like emotional hunger, like eating for emotional reasons, but it’s kind of serving a different function. ⁓ So I wanted to kind of like highlight that. I would say that is also another thing of like expanding the idea that it’s okay to eat for emotional reasons of like, it’s okay to eat for stimulation. Should it be your only tool for stimulation? Probably not. But acknowledging that it can be a part of a healthy relationship with you too. So.

Julie Duffy Dillon (31:59)

I love that. No, that in the Dopa menu, I was like, yeah.

Becca (32:10)

Yeah, I can’t say I did not come up with that Eric Trivers and ⁓ gosh, I can’t think of her name. But they came up with it. How to ADHD is her YouTube channel. But they both came up with it. And it just was like, this is I use with my clients all the time.

Julie Duffy Dillon (32:23)

Okay. Will you give a definition of it so that they can…

Becca (32:32)

Yeah, it’s basically like, imagine a menu. It’s kind of a visual of all your tools for stimulation. So your appetizers would be like quick little things you could do for, so like before this call, let’s say if I was like, I really need a little bit of stimulation, could be like making a cup of coffee or something like that. So like little boosts of dopamine. Your sides would be things like fidgets, know, things you can do alongside other activities. ⁓ your mains would be things that take up some time and energy, but are like fulfilling sources of dopamine. So for me, going for a walk would be an example of something like that. ⁓ then your desserts would be things that are like easy to overdo and probably not very fulfilling. So like scrolling social media would be a good example of that. Literally food could, I, for a lot of some of my clients, like that might be an area of putting it there of like, Hey, I need to be aware that this isn’t always the most useful tool for me to use. ⁓ And then we have your specials, which would be things that would be like things you can’t do all the time because they might require more money time like Maybe going shopping or like for me going to a concert like if I could go to a concert every single day I would be so my brain would be so happy, but unfortunately, I can’t do that Yeah, yeah, they’re so expensive. So I’m like, okay, that’s that’s that and then

Julie Duffy Dillon (33:33)

Oh yeah. Same. Same. Especially now, now they’re so expensive, yeah.

Becca (33:52)

There’s one more category that was on the original one, but like late night snacks. And I put that as like things to help you unwind from stimulation of like, especially in the evening time, think people with ADHD feel like, I’m always needing stimulation, but actually there is a time when we might need to unwind or kind of, especially in the evening, if you do want to go to bed, it’s like actually trying to get our brains to wind down, which isn’t always easy, can be helpful too, so.

Julie Duffy Dillon (33:56)

What’s the dopamine part of it?

Becca (34:20)

Yeah, so our brains in a very oversimplified way, our brains are basically just ⁓ have a lower baseline of dopamine. our brains are just always seeking stimulation basically. like that’s why people fidget or you know, doing those kinds of behaviors is helping their brain regulate essentially.

Julie Duffy Dillon (34:24)

Mm-hmm, I love it. with ADHD. Okay. Okay. I’m thinking about my folks with PCOS who also have that sleep anxiety. I’m like, I wonder how that is with the dopamine part of this conversation. Is it like they’re just plumb out a dopamine and they’re just like, I don’t know. Or do they have too much? That’s what I’m like, I don’t really understand the dopamine side of things, but I don’t think I have to understand it to just know like, it sounds like you all like in ADHD circles are talking about like this is something that’s important.

 

Becca (35:11)

Yeah, yeah, I’m kind of like figuring out, like for me, can be very easy to spend way too much time on my phone. That’s probably my like annoying thing that I’m like, this doesn’t make me feel like I don’t, I will get done scrolling. And I’m like, cool, what did I, you know, like that really. wasn’t wasn’t that fulfilling for me. So I think yeah, that’s a nice conversation to like, expand or like, you know, encouraging for me is encouraging my clients like making time to do things that make you ⁓ feel like fulfilled and alive is really important for our brains because it’s basically like our we’re like an interest based nervous system. So it’s a little bit like we need these things or we’re going to seek it out from other other things if we’re not making time for it. Like my clients, especially who are like, work is where I put all of my energy. A lot of times they’re like, I mean, they still need to have something else that stimulates their brain or else they’re kind of coming home from work. And it’s usually that they’re just turning to food. And so it’s like, Hey, we need to have some other things that kind of fill up your cup a little bit. Cause food maybe was serving that purpose for a while. And now it’s to a place where you’re like, this doesn’t

Julie Duffy Dillon (36:08)

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Oh, that’s so interesting. I’m like downloading all this for my family life with people in my life are like, oh, this is so interesting. Oh, yeah. Good. So one thing I wanted to talk about before we wrap up, because we’re running out of time, of course, but you mentioned practical hunger. And I love how you phrased that, because I think it. It’s something especially as dietitians working in the non-diet space, we definitely like see like just hunger and fullness as like your markers to eat. ⁓ It’s gonna miss, everybody’s gonna have problems with that, you know? And if you’re on medication that impacts it, if the hyper fixations are like also distracting a person from being able to connect what they need, like it’s like a self-care thing. so yeah, tell the audience what practical hunger is and

Becca (37:21)

so it’s like, it’s eating when you’re not hungry, but like, kind of logically knowing that like, you need to eat, I will get you know, when I first started talking about intuitive eating for ADHD on social media, people will be like, well, if I just didn’t eat, you know, if I just listen to my body, I wouldn’t eat all day. And then I would binge at night. And I’m like, but how does that

Julie Duffy Dillon (37:28)

what you’re hoping people do with that.

Becca (37:46)

make you feel and they’re like, doesn’t feel good. I’m like, okay, yeah. So like, logically, you might not be hungry for lunch. But like, if that’s your eating pattern, and you don’t want to be doing that, then we might need to, you know, then eating lunch would be be helpful for you. Or if we’re noticing like, hey, I’m getting a really big dip in energy later on in the day, and I’m not eating earlier, you know, maybe I need to incorporate it. So for me, This was what made intuitive eating when I started intuitive eating feel doable because I’m like, I’m on meds that suppress my appetite. So how am I supposed to eat when I’m hungry? And so for me, was, it was what helped me kind of make that like framework of like, okay, even if I’m not hungry, I’m going to eat every three to four hours or about that, you know, I’m trying to get myself on a more regular eating schedule. But yeah, I think, yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (38:29)

Yeah. And just see what happens. Yeah. Collect your data and see what happens. Yeah.

Becca (38:36)

Yeah, so I think it can help especially like, depending on your job even like if you have a lunch break, and that’s the only time you get to eat at work, like you might not be hungry, but you’re probably going to eat, or it might be smart to eat. that way when you get off work, you’re not ravenous or feel terrible. Because you’re so hungry. So I think yeah, it’s just a nice like, giving yourself permission to recognize like when you might need to eat from a place of self care rather than like, yeah, my body is saying I’m hungry right now. And it’s like, sometimes it’s not, but I might know that this is my opportunity. Like if I’m about to hyper focus, or like I know I’m about to sit down at my computer and not get up for a while, I will probably eat a snack beforehand. Even if I’ve eaten recently, just because I’m like, you know what, if I’m about to sit down, like when I was writing my book, I’m gonna sit down and have a snack before I sit down at this computer and, and not get up for four hours. And yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (39:04)

Yeah, yeah, because once the flow starts, it’s just going to start.

Becca (39:31)

I’m not gonna get up. So it’s like, even if I might be hungry, so it’s like, cool, I’m just gonna eat before then, you know, knowing that that way when I finally hit a stopping point, I’m not like, my gosh, I’m so hungry, like, you know, or I’ve got a headache, because I’m hungry, or I’m not like, you know, you hit that wall, and you’re like, that’s what kind of trying to avoid, avoid one of that. I’m hungry.

Julie Duffy Dillon (39:38)

Yeah. And I’m so glad that you spent time going through this side of like this practical hunger and using it as like, this is another part of intuitive eating or like using non-diet techniques because I think there’s something about like how the world has ⁓ taught us about intuitive eating, you know, like it’s just kind of through that dieting lens because that’s all, especially those of us who’ve been brought up around it our whole life.

Julie Duffy Dillon (40:22)

It’s something that like the only way we can kind of see food recommendations and ⁓ yeah, just like to me, I’m like, it’s like self care and like thinking about if you had a guest at your house and you you would want to make sure they ate or you had, they had the option to eat every like three or four hours, you know, like you’d ask my care, you want anything to eat? Are you hungry? You know, so having that I think is, I know there’s something about putting it in print and having permission just from that I think is going to be really, really helpful.

Becca (40:43)

Yeah, and it’s nice to have some like, I some examples in there. So it’s just like, okay, let me be reminded that this is because I think it does get oversimplified to like, it’s just eat when you’re hungry and stop when you’re full. And I’m always like, there’s so much more nuance to it. Then that when it comes to intuitive eating, because like, a lot of times, that’s what people think it is. So like, reminding them that there are there’s a lot of gray in there and that’s what’s different than, I would say most diets are, a lot of diets are kind of still telling you eat when you’re hungry and stop when you’re full in some kind of way. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (41:17)

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. But then just never trusting. I think that’s the big thing with most diets are like, but you probably need too much. So…

Becca (41:36)

Yeah, but like if you listen to your body, it’s yeah, like it’s still like I had a conversation with a friend. She was like, I need to start like taking pictures of my food. So I like, I think I’m just eating too much. And I was like, that’s interesting. I was like, I, I don’t have any idea. Like, she was I couldn’t ever, I was like, I have no idea how, like, couldn’t tell you how many calories I eat every day. And I have no desire anymore to really like need to need to know that information on a day to day basis. And I was like, that’s interesting. You know?

Julie Duffy Dillon (42:09

Yes, that you’ve been led to believe that obviously there’s a problem if you don’t know. And I think especially as dieticians, it’s hard to not know. Like we have to actively repair, yes.

Becca (42:20)

Yeah, like, it’s there. It’s there in the like, in, you know, it’s there. it’s thankfully now it’s not the first like I don’t look at food as numbers anymore. Yeah, like I couldn’t work in certain settings anymore, because that’s not how my brain I mean, it could I could get there again. But like, my brain just doesn’t. That’s not what I’m computing when I’m looking at food anymore. It’s so nice.

Julie Duffy Dillon (42:30)

Uh-huh. Yes, you have to actively go back in the filing cabinet to get to it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It takes a lot of work as a dietitian to get to that place of like doing that. I don’t know. I just say that for any dietitian listening, take care of yourself. It’s a hard job. Taking care of yourself with food and then taking care of other people in your life and helping clients with their food. It’s just a lot. we need to wrap up, but is there anything else that Or anything that you wish that people with ADHD knew about their relationship with food, like anything that you want them to have as their take home message.

Becca (43:30)

Usually what I like to tell people is, yeah, that there’s no one right way to feeding yourself. And like, that’s kind of how I explain intuitive eating to people. like, it’s removing the shoulds and figuring out what works best for you. Like, that’s usually what I tell people if they’re like not very familiar with intuitive eating. That’s kind of how I’ll explain it. ⁓

Julie Duffy Dillon (43:41)

Yes. Mm-hmm. That’s such a great explanation. Love that.

Becca (43:50)

Yeah, because that way it’s not like it’s this not like seems like this woo woo wee thing like when people when I first discovered it to a meeting, I did think it was woo woo. And now I’m like, I don’t feel that way anymore. But explaining it that way, people are like, ⁓ okay. And so I think just thinking about it that way. And I would say with ADHD in general that like, probably the things that are going to work for you are what is like doesn’t work for other people. And that’s totally okay. That doesn’t mean you’re doing something wrong. It just means you’re doing what works best for you and that’s all right.

Julie Duffy Dillon (44:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And anybody who has ADHD and PCOS or one or the other or both, like you can also recover from your eating disorder. You can also not diet. Like you just may, it may just look different. Like you said, that’s all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the rest of the intuitive eating conversation will eventually catch up and include it. But for now you’re, you just may do it differently. And yeah, there’s, I’m glad that your book is here to help people to be able to connect with it. And your book, I’m gonna say the name, How to Eat Well for Adults with ADHD. And where can people find you if they wanna know more about you or just join your universe? Mm-hmm.

Becca (45:04)

Yeah, Instagram would be the best place to find me. I’m at adhd.nutritionist. That’s probably, yeah, that’s where I’m most active. There is where you can find me. yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (45:13)

Mm-hmm. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time and thanks for coming on.

Becca (45:18)

Yeah, thanks for having me Julie.

Julie Duffy Dillon (45:21)

So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Becca King and I definitely recommend her book. You can get a link to it below and get right to my bookshop store where you can get to all other non-diet books I recommend, including Becca’s. So thank you so much for listening and supporting the Find Your Food Voice podcast and newsletter. Remember to follow us over on Substack and we are just so grateful that you’re a part of the conversation and the movement. We look forward to bringing you the next episode where we’re going to be talking about body changes in relationship. And that is a group chat episode with Rachel and Coleen. So I’m very much looking forward to it. And that is all for today. So I look forward to seeing you then. Bye for now.