Julie Duffy Dillon (00:02)

Hey there, welcome to episode 433 of the Find Your Food Voice podcast. Today, my team and I are breaking down the American Next Top Model documentary. Let’s get to it.

Hey there, I am Julie Duffy Dillon, registered dietitian and your host of the Find Your Food Voice podcast. Today is a Diet Culture IRL. This is ⁓ the type of episode where we take something that is happening in real time and examine it and discuss it and how it relates to finding your food voice. We had, of course, another topic in mind for today, but as Colleen always says, life presents to you.

many different options for diet culture IRLs because well, dieting is hardcore again. So anyway, today we are breaking down the recent documentary, sharing the behind the scenes on the very popular early reality show, America’s Next Top Model. And what you’re gonna hear from me and the team is basically like where we were when it was on, what we thought back then compared to

what we think now, especially after watching this documentary. So we are gonna get to that in just a minute. Quick housekeeping for us before we get to the episode. Remember that this is the second to last episode of Find Your Food Voice. We have one more episode left before we close this chapter. And this last episode we’ve been working on behind the scenes. We’re really excited to bring it to you. We hope it does the same that it is.

gonna do for us to just help us have some closure and ⁓ help us continuing with the process of writing letters to food. There’ll be lots of those in this episode. And you’re also gonna hear from listeners just like you who provided us some feedback about their experiences with the show. And if you are wondering like, how the heck do I stay in touch with you Julie after the show ends? Well, I hope you can stay along for the ride as it changes.

And the best way to stay connected with me right now is on Substack. I’m not doing a lot of social media these days, but Substack is where I mostly am. And that way you can be on my email list and catch any announcements as they come up, because I am working on some pretty cool things behind the scenes that I am not ready to announce yet, but I definitely want to stay connected to you. So on Substack, if you go to findyourfoodvoice.substack.com, you will stay in the loop. All right, enough of all of that.

We are gonna take a very quick sponsor break and then we are going to get a chance to chat with Colleen and Rachel and me. And we’re just gonna discuss all the things about America’s Next Top Model.

Julie Duffy Dillon (02:52)

Hello team.

Rachel Popik (02:54)

Hi.

Coleen (she/her) (02:54)

Bye!

Julie Duffy Dillon (02:56)

Welcome to our last Diet Culture IRL.

Coleen (she/her) (03:00)

Can’t believe it.

Julie Duffy Dillon (03:01)

can’t believe it. But we got a great topic. Yes. Again.

Rachel Popik (03:02)

As Colleen says, universe provides.

Coleen (she/her) (03:03)

We really do.

The universe

provides yet again. So I am like very excited to talk about this because, I don’t know where you all were when this show aired. but we’re here chatting about America’s next top model. It is all over again. all the chat feeds, Instagram, you know,

Julie Duffy Dillon (03:10)

Mm-hmm.

Hehehe

Coleen (she/her) (03:30)

TikTok everywhere. Everyone’s talking about it again, but for a different reason, because now there is this documentary on Netflix, kind of it’s, I don’t even know if we can call it a tell all. but it’s just a short three episodes and we’ve all watched this documentary and decided this would be an interesting topic for us to chat about. So we’re starting from.

the origin of this story, which is where we all were when we first saw America’s Next Top Model. And I can’t believe it started in 2003, Julie, think is what you shared, which is wild because in 2003 I was in middle school and obviously some pretty formative years of my life. And I remember watching this like

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:02)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Coleen (she/her) (04:15)

all the time. was like I ate and and I was breathing and like thinking that I was like I was practicing my smize in the mirror. Like I was like, okay, I am going on America’s Next Top Model. I’m going to be the first plus size winner to like win this show. And what’s interesting at the time is I think when I was watching this show, I would would not have been considered plus size, but in my mind already, I was plus size. So

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:25)

⁓ the smies, yes.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (04:45)

It was just, yeah, I think just thinking about, you know, where I was at the time and like, I can’t believe I was allowed to watch it. Like now looking back, I’m like, wow, I don’t even know. Like, I can’t remember if my parents were watching or if it was like just me watching it and being like, wow, like this is high fashion. Like this is, this is like what I want to and you know, if you’ve heard me talk before, I thought like I was going to be famous or something like.

Rachel Popik (04:53)

you

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:00)

Mm-hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (05:11)

and so I thought like, wow, this is my gateway into like fame. If I can become like the first, I was practicing my runway walk. I was getting up when Ms. J walked. Like I was doing all the things and, ⁓ I just remember thinking like, wow, this is so, I just loved, like, I loved how glossy it was. I loved like the clothes I loved. I don’t remember being as like into the drama or like the, you know, like the

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:21)

Yes. This Jay was great. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Popik (05:33)

⁓

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:39)

Hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (05:40)

like real like house whatever feel of the show. I remember the like photo shoots and the like clothes and the makeup and like showing the like final photos. Those were the things I remembered and how the judges talked about the women like in those final photos. And then rewatching or watching this documentary, I was like, wow, there was a lot of problematic stuff that I like did not register or clock at the time. So.

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:47)

Hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (06:08)

Julie, Rachel, I’m curious to hear about like your, where you were during the, the beginnings of America’s Next Top Model.

Julie Duffy Dillon (06:16)

Rachel, why don’t you go? Because I know you were at a similar age. Yeah.

Rachel Popik (06:19)

similar age, so I too

was in middle school. I remember watching it like after school, right? Like I got home before my mom did and that and like Gilmore Girls were like the two things that I would watch like after school. And I don’t know if like my mom and I ever had an explicit conversation. Like this show is inappropriate or you know, like something you shouldn’t be watching.

Julie Duffy Dillon (06:31)

⁓ yeah.

Rachel Popik (06:43)

But I knew enough to know that this wasn’t something that I should watch when my mom was around. Not because she was openly like, diet culture is bad, but she was very anti any sort of reality kind of shows, things like that. So I remember watching it. So I wasn’t watching it when episodes aired. I was watching the reruns any time it was on. thought whatever.

Julie Duffy Dillon (06:47)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay, I was wondering how you saw it after school. Okay.

Rachel Popik (07:12)

I can’t remember what channel it was the reruns were dropping on. Yes, but I don’t like when they were on reruns. But so I wasn’t watching like an entire season, but I was getting enough of it that like I was very invested. And I remember like, unlike Colleen, there was no part of me that wanted to be famous or a model or anything like that. And so like I didn’t want to be them in that way.

Julie Duffy Dillon (07:14)

UPN.

yeah. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rachel Popik (07:40)

But I remember wanting to be like skinny and pretty. Like already in middle school, like I thought I wasn’t pretty and I thought I was too big. And at the time, Colleen, like I wouldn’t have been considered plus size by any means at that point in my life, but I already remember being like, like would be better if I was pretty like them and skinny like them.

Julie Duffy Dillon (08:05)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the, I’m trying to think about where I was. So 2003, because I watched the first season, but I think I watched it later, because in 2003, I was in grad school, and that was the one drawback of grad school is I didn’t have time to watch TV. I feel like that was like the one thing that suffered, but I definitely like, as I was watching the documentary, I remembered so much of the drama.

which is interesting that you said that Colleen, because I was like, that was the thing that I remembered the most. I also remember the photo reveals. I was like, yeah, I remember this one and this one, this one. can’t believe how much that was imprinted in my brain’s memory. But this was a time in 2003, 2004 was when I was first getting exposed to non-diet, not necessarily weight inclusive, but like non-diet work. So I was like, ooh.

there’s some problems here. And yet also at the time, I remember thinking, wow, this is like a show that’s actually showing diversity. Not necessarily of size, other types of diversity. But now, of course, we’ll talk about now watching it through eyes today, how like, really no. But at the time that was considered, because there was more

than one person of color on the show. So that made it so diverse, basically, because yeah, that was just not a part of it. But hearing that Gilmore Girls alongside of it, I’m like, yeah, that tracks. That was basically early 2000s diet culture bullshit. And as the seasons went on, I stopped watching it because then I was like, my God, this is like.

This is so problematic. It took a couple of seasons though for me to get to that point. But yeah, it felt like after it was like the second and third season and I was seeing clients with eating disorders, it just felt like such a push for more disordered eating behavior. And it was one that my clients and I would often talk about.

yeah, let’s leave the room when that comes on, or see if you can advocate for yourself to turn it off because it sounds like it’s just gonna make things harder for you to make choices for yourself. So yeah, that’s what was going on. mean, this was a time where like early 2002 was when, I wonder if you all were exposed to this. I have a feeling you were because you were in middle school or a little earlier.

Do y’all remember seeing a PowerPoint presentation that was really famous that showed BMI changes over the 1990s? Like, are they showing the BMI and like changes of the US population in like the 70s, 80s, 90s? And it went through all the 90s by year. And then all of a sudden it went from like maybe one third of the population having a higher BMI to all of a sudden it was like 90 % or something like alarming. So that came out, it was either in like,

Coleen (she/her) (10:59)

Yes.

Julie Duffy Dillon (11:04)

2000, 2001. So like that was the height of like so much of like the epidemic kind of fear, alarming type of stuff. And so having this show where people were told to look smaller and rewarded for looking like very, very small. Yeah, it just made things a lot harder.

Coleen (she/her) (11:25)

I remember too, like during the times that I was watching this, like people joking with me or making comments to me that like, I could never have like a disordered or like eating disorder problem. Like I specifically remember the comments that like, you know, one of the women would be eating whatever she was eating and like make a comment about that. And then like people that were close to me were like, well you would never have that problem. And like, I just remember like,

Julie Duffy Dillon (11:38)

Mmm.

Coleen (she/her) (11:54)

That’s what I remember from watching the show more than anything. And so I just think it’s really interesting how even though, Julie, at the time you knew it was problematic, it took me how long to realize that that was problematic.

Julie Duffy Dillon (12:06)

Right. Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Coleen (she/her) (12:12)

So, yeah, I guess, like, we spoke a little bit about, like, what our thoughts were back then, kind of along with, you know, what we were doing when we first watched it or where we were. So we’ve got a little bit of the foundation of, you know, how it was when we were watching. And now this Netflix documentary kind of comes into play, right? And we get a second shot at looking at this in…

Today’s day and age and hearing from some of the lead voices in from that series share a little bit more about some of the behind the scenes and what was going on. Rachel or Julie, do you want to start with like some of your reactions to not only watching the documentary, but maybe some of where it was lacking or where you had wished to see more or maybe what they did right.

Julie Duffy Dillon (13:00)

Hmm.

Yeah. You know, the thing that struck me watching it, and this is kind of like what I missed.

Yeah, what I missed when I was watching it the first time was how exploitive it was of the contestants. I think, you know, hearing the two of you describe middle school reactions to watching it, it really just showed for me how this was the, generation’s like social media. Like if you were watching like YouTube or you were on Instagram or TikTok, like this was kind of like that experience, you know, it was just like,

as an adult, I was kind of like, man, you know, kind of checked out a little bit because it was for younger people. Right. and I don’t think that. I think it was so harmful, that people were creating a TV show too. And it’s like a business, like this is something like it was something that was making money for folks and.

the people who were recruited to be these models were like the product in a sense, and they were like a pawn. like, clear, like remember like it was yesterday watching all the, the account of, was it Chandra? What was the woman’s name with blonde hair who was that? I don’t know if it was cycle one, but it was one of the early cycles and she had a boyfriend.

Coleen (she/her) (14:22)

Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:23)

And then she got really drunk in Italy

and she was assaulted. She said, thank you. Thank you, Shandi. And then her telling her boyfriend what happened. Like, I can remember all that, like watching it in real time. But then when I saw it on this documentary, I was like, why did they let her do this? Like, why did they film her getting, I mean, assault is just the first word I thought of describing it. I don’t know if she described it as that. And then,

Rachel Popik (14:25)

Thank you.

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:50)

telling her boyfriend, like all these like very personal things. And I know they’re on reality TV, but like, seriously, that was horrible. So yeah, very exploited and.

And they didn’t care. the thing that made me so sad was that the, not Tyra, but the men that she had hired to help to, you know, coach people and things like that, they seemed more like saying sorry about like how people were exploited. And it didn’t seem like she really did. And that was disappointing to me, like the lack of accountability. I wish there was more accountability across the board, but especially from Tyra Banks.

Coleen (she/her) (15:23)

Yeah.

Rachel Popik (15:25)

Yeah, I mean, think I’m watching the whole documentary. I also want to point out I was kind of reflecting and like typing up my reflections this morning and in prep for this and discovered that apparently a week ago, E also came out with a documentary. We’re like at docu- I’m not entirely sure, but there’s also, and I don’t know, there’s another one. And I haven’t watched and you both look surprised. So I’m neither of you have watched.

Julie Duffy Dillon (15:45)

Really?

There’s another one to watch.

Yeah… No…

Coleen (she/her) (15:55)

I didn’t

know, yeah.

Rachel Popik (15:56)

but, and so I just want to note that like none of what any of us are saying is with that in context. I have no idea what that’s about. but watching the documentary, mean, I was like angry, I was disgusted. was, it was just really interesting. Like Colleen, I don’t remember when I originally watched it. I don’t remember like the drama and the reality bit of it. I remember the like the photo shoots and the modeling bit of it.

and so to like kind of reflect on that, the Shandy story, like really stuck with me. Like she, and I believe at this point she does like call it sexual assault, but like the fact that, Ken, what’s his name? Like the executive producer was like, well, it was real, like it was a documentary. And so like, we were, told them we would be filling filming regardless. And just like the idea that like they facilitated like,

Julie Duffy Dillon (16:34)

Okay.

Hmm.

Rachel Popik (16:49)

you know, these people haven’t eaten, they’re exhausted, let’s pump alcohol into them and then like encourage them to get in a hot tub with these guys and like, just, yeah, like how much the combination of like, well, it’s just a documentary. So we were gonna keep filming no matter what. And the like facilitation of.

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:11)

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Popik (17:12)

certain interactions like that, or I believe her name was Kenya, like in South Africa, who was like being harassed by the, know, who was working with and how she was like blamed and was like critiqued for saying something, like, you know, she was at fault. Or like, there was another model who I can’t remember lost someone to gun violence and then like,

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:20)

yes. Yes.

Yes.

Rachel Popik (17:37)

you know, was

her shoot was to be like, pretend to be a victim of gun violence. And it’s like very clear from watching the documentary, like they intentionally put those scenarios together to get a reaction to make good TV. ⁓ And so that was just a really upsetting. I also think before watching the documentary, if you had asked me like,

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:45)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Popik (18:02)

what do you think about America’s Next Top Model? I probably pretty easily could have been like, well, like from a diet culture perspective, that was probably pretty fucked up. Like I could have done that before seeing the documentary, but like also thinking about the photo shoots, like being re-reminded of the photo shoots, like the one where they were like, go pretend to be on housed or we’re gonna do blackface on all of you or the like the violence one, just the.

Julie Duffy Dillon (18:25)

Yes, yes.

Rachel Popik (18:30)

the absurd and highly problematic photo shoots that they were choosing to do the end that coupled with Tyra Banks’s and all of them, but especially Tyra, like it felt like I walked away from it being like, why did you choose to be on this documentary? Like there was no

Julie Duffy Dillon (18:51)

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Popik (18:52)

She took zero accountability. She was just like, that’s how it was. it didn’t paint her well and she didn’t do a good job of like, I don’t know. It didn’t feel like a smart move from her and also, yeah, just the utter lack of accountability was infuriating.

Julie Duffy Dillon (18:54)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It would have felt different for me too if there was more accountability. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Popik (19:19)

Right. Because in some ways, like I understand where

we’re reflecting on this thing that happened in the early 2000s. Society and culture have shifted a lot in the past, you know, 23 years. To some extent, I understand the like it was of a time, but that justification only goes so far, especially without any accountability.

Julie Duffy Dillon (19:28)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. What about you, Colleen?

Coleen (she/her) (19:46)

Yeah, I think you both hit kind of everything I would touch on. I think something else that stood out to me, and it’s probably because I value my friendship so much, was how the friendship between Jay and Tyra sort of fell apart. And not because Jay did anything wrong, wanted to step away from the show, sent what I’m sure he thought was a professional letter.

to let her know like, hey, I’m doing the courtesy of like talking to you first before I try to step away. And then still had to do the show and was like roped in. then when like, I think it was the producer for the documentary was like, would you like to talk about that now or talk to him now? Tyler was like, no, I should just call him, which we know she’s never gonna do. So I don’t know, like a part of me was like, man, to have this wonderful friendship. I mean, so Jay Manuel, who was like,

I would assume they were best friends and Miss J who taught her to walk and like was on this show. Like all of that just kind of went out the window for what Tyra’s like perceived notion of fame was. And I’m sure there’s what three sides to every story. Like, I’m sure there are things that you don’t know as the viewer that, you know, are on her side. I certainly don’t want to like overlook that. But I just was heartbroken for like the loss of friendships due to like

Julie Duffy Dillon (20:45)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (21:08)

that perceived like, gotta get my next bag, you know? ⁓ And so I just felt really sad about that. So I was like, wow, I couldn’t imagine going into something with my best friend or like thinking like, hey, this is gonna be something huge. It’s gonna be incredible for us. And then like writing that friendship like out because of whatever reason. ⁓ So just, I was just so sad by that. And I mean, of course, everything you shared.

Julie Duffy Dillon (21:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that so sad.

Coleen (she/her) (21:35)

is also substantial. And I think a lot of those behind the scenes conversations, I think I too was hoping for a little bit more accountability, both from Ken, like as the executive producer and from Tyra as kind of the show’s origin story, like creator, like some semblance beyond like, it was a sign of the times. Like, I also think there’s room for

Julie Duffy Dillon (21:46)

Huh.

Coleen (she/her) (21:57)

more ethical, like reality television. I think this could kind of spark that conversation even farther. You know, when I watch reality shows that I like now, like The Circle, I think is a really fun one. I’m like, okay, there may be some harmful things said on that show, but I don’t think the producers are actively putting them in dangerous or like harmful situations to make better TV. Whereas I think, you know, for this, that was certainly happening.

Julie Duffy Dillon (22:00)

Hmm.

Right.

Coleen (she/her) (22:25)

⁓

and so I think just thinking about like, okay, what’s a sign of our times now, I think is like a really interesting, like way to look at, you know, reality television, how things have evolved. And I’m not saying like we’ve come such a long way because like there are certainly harmful, like reality shows on air now, that exploit, you know, women and men in a sexual way. but I think that it does just beg the question, like there has to be.

a way that we can do this that is still makes for good TV for you know what the producers want, what the audiences want, but also leaves a shred of dignity and a shred of humanity for the people that are on these like that want to participate in these in these ways to, know, whether it’s elevate their brand or, you know, create a new life for themselves. I think that was one of the hardest parts to watch for me. I remember watching I think it was Danny say like I had to get

Julie Duffy Dillon (23:04)

Mm-hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (23:20)

out of my situation and this was my ticket. This was my one way ride to do that. And then she was pretty much like, essentially like she was the like black sheep of her agency because she had been on this show. So she didn’t even get any gigs like from winning. And I was like, what? Like how? And I thought she was so, I remember too, like watching her season and being like, her gap is beautiful. Why would they want to change that?

Julie Duffy Dillon (23:23)

Yeah.

Yes, that was so surprising to hear. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Rachel Popik (23:38)

Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (23:46)

Exactly.

Coleen (she/her) (23:48)

Like that’s what makes her unique. Even Nigel Barker said that he was like, I was super against it because like perfect is not like always the best photograph. Like having, you know, what makes us us is what’s like truly beautiful. And I was like, where was that energy when that like season?

Julie Duffy Dillon (23:59)

Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Rachel Popik (24:09)

Not to mention the fact that like, then the next season, I can’t remember who it was, but they like, were like, you have a gap? Let’s widen your gap. Like, just, yeah. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (24:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, exactly. The gaslighting, I mean, I basically, was like that it

was so obvious that they were just trying to play some game. And it’s so horrible because of, yeah, like how this impacted people. And hearing how people who’ve been on the show couldn’t find work in modeling at all because of how they got to be in these modeling agencies. like, that was a

a level of heartbreak that I was not expecting. And I had no idea that that happened, you know? And I have a feeling that’s more the norm and like the reality show circles. Like I’ve heard similar things with Project One Way, like how people have limitations on how they can use their name to promote their own brand and stuff like that. I’m like, what? Like they talk you out of like your own…

Coleen (she/her) (24:51)

Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (25:12)

like authority and autonomy to be able to do things. It’s just, yeah, it’s heartbreaking. ⁓

Rachel Popik (25:18)

especially

when reality TV for the most part and like I don’t really watch reality TV anymore so I can’t speak to like current day stuff but like you know it is to some extent scripted and and molded in a way to create these like juicy good stories right so you know someone is kind of picked to be the villain or the dramatic one and like if what the world is seeing like you kind of get slotted into that

Julie Duffy Dillon (25:34)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Popik (25:48)

like the problematic you’re creating drama, or you’re angry, or the angry black woman trope, whatever it is, then, well, of course, modeling agencies aren’t gonna wanna touch you, because they’re like, what we see of you is this narrative that may or may not be true. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (25:54)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Exactly, exactly.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And the storyboarding that’s a part of reality TV right now, I think is part of how it’s evolved because, you know, people who were in the early 2000s going on reality TV before we had a standard and totally got exploited. Well, then eventually people were more like, I don’t know, like trying to protect themselves. So then there wasn’t like the quote drama because of that. And so the storyboarding, I think, is how there’s kind of this

plan of drama. the one thing that I’ve heard, I think mostly just like in like Bravo kind of reality TV is whenever I’d like watch a reunion or something, people would name HR, like how these shows have like HR and things like that. And I’m like, well, of course they do. But I never would have thought about that back in America’s Next Top Model. If there’s an incident, whether it’s taped or not,

there’s like a process that they have now. hopefully that’s become more of the standard. I don’t know, but yeah.

Coleen (she/her) (27:06)

I just

thinking too about like, I think, you know, we talked about this a little bit, but I think Shandi not being able to like call her parents or her mom, like that too is just like gut wrenching. It’s like not only were like, was the exploitation so real, but the harm so real. And then they had no one to talk to other than like the potential people who would film them talking to them. So.

Julie Duffy Dillon (27:16)

Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right,

yeah.

Coleen (she/her) (27:35)

Like

that must have been such a lonely and scary and isolating experience for each of those women. Cause I mean, I imagine there are things too that didn’t make it to air that were also pretty ugly.

Julie Duffy Dillon (27:40)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. And these, the people who were contestants, I’m assuming they were at least 18, but it didn’t seem like many were any older than that. Oh, so young. Oh, goodness. Yeah. Heartbreaking. You know, the thing we haven’t mentioned was, I can’t remember anyone’s name, but that’s just on brand for me. Someone mentioning that they were outed on the show.

Coleen (she/her) (27:58)

Yeah.

Rachel Popik (27:59)

Yeah,

right. So young, so, so young.

Julie Duffy Dillon (28:17)

as a lesbian. another thing that I was like, dang, that was horrible, uncalled for, not acceptable. Has anyone taken accountability for that? And no. Yeah. Wah, wah.

Coleen (she/her) (28:17)

yeah.

Rachel Popik (28:18)

Yes.

Coleen (she/her) (28:33)

I don’t know what happened with that network, because I remember them saying the network that it was on. And I was like, is that even a network anymore? Like, what happened to UPN?

Julie Duffy Dillon (28:39)

Mm-hmm, UPN.

Rachel Popik (28:42)

I know, I was like, I know.

Julie Duffy Dillon (28:44)

I think they

may have gotten bought out by somebody and they melded together. But that was before we had streaming and it was like the type of cable where we didn’t have that many channels yet. And so it was kind of like Fox. It was like this before Fox became what it is today.

Coleen (she/her) (28:53)

Right.

Rachel Popik (29:04)

So I just Googled because I was curious. it merged with the, which makes sense now, it merged with WB and then became PW. I remember. ⁓

Julie Duffy Dillon (29:11)

that’s right. Yes. That’s where Gilmore Girls was on

Coleen (she/her) (29:13)

out.

Julie Duffy Dillon (29:16)

too. Yes, yes. goodness. Yeah, that’s Ural’s generation, isn’t it? Like that was all those shows on that network. Yes.

Coleen (she/her) (29:16)

Yep.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. Wild. Memory lane.

Julie Duffy Dillon (29:26)

Wow, memory lane. Where do we go from

here? Like, are we gonna do with all this information?

Coleen (she/her) (29:32)

Yeah, I don’t know. feel like, you know, we chatted a little bit about like the ethics of reality TV and like what that means, you know, for future reality. I wonder if like we each leave a message to our younger selves ⁓ watching this show or maybe to young people now who might be, you know, inundated with different images of what the ideal beauty standard is.

Julie Duffy Dillon (29:48)

Hmm.

Coleen (she/her) (29:59)

Maybe we can say like a few words to those young people, younger selves or those listening or watching this later.

Julie Duffy Dillon (30:08)

Colleen, why you go first?

Coleen (she/her) (30:10)

I

feel like the big thing is just to not believe everything you see, which I feel like our parents told us to, but now makes even more sense with how images are altered and how the perceived ideal of beauty is consistently changing. Like, I feel like every year it’s something different, right? Like a different body shape, a different body style, different size, like.

Julie Duffy Dillon (30:17)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Coleen (she/her) (30:38)

what’s

chic, you know, what’s not chic. It’s like, man, in the grand scheme of things, like life is about so much more. And like, there’s so many different things to occupy time and then like being so hyper focused on those certain images or traits that maybe right now in this moment, like you don’t love about yourself and think that’s okay too, if there are things about yourself you don’t love, but.

just I think leaning more into neutrality and being like, well, this is how I am and that’s okay. I think more of that would just do younger Colleen or a younger version of myself would have done me a lot of good.

Julie Duffy Dillon (31:05)

Huh.

You

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Popik (31:21)

beautiful.

Julie Duffy Dillon (31:22)

1. I can go. The thing that I would say is bodies change and let’s normalize that. And there’s much more diversity out there than the television or social media, whatever we’re using, is giving us information on. And if something doesn’t feel right, like lean into it, you know, like don’t

just get sucked up into what’s trending and things like that. And something in particular that we haven’t mentioned that probably was the most impactful for me, probably because of my present age and stuff, was the very end. And this is a spoiler alert. And again, I don’t remember anyone’s names. Was it Miss J? Miss J had a stroke and just ableism and the shame that Miss J described of not being able

to walk and how that part of Ms. J’s identity was shaken and how isolated. And I can’t remember Ms. J’s pronouns, so I keep saying Ms. J, but how Ms. J felt, but I felt also this like warm sense camaraderie for the three who stuck together.

You know, they were no longer aligning with Tyra, but they were able to be friends and support each other. And that felt good. But yeah, just the even just the focus on bodies having to look a certain way and be like, able to do certain things in order to be worthy. Like, let’s continue to shake that narrative. yeah, because our bodies are going to change. The end. Yeah.

Rachel Popik (32:53)

Yeah, think, I mean, all of that, yes. And I think I would just add that there’s not one, there’s not one like arbiter or like all knowing.

entity that gets to decide like what is beautiful. Like all bodies are different and all bodies are beautiful. And there’s not just one way that you can be beautiful. And I think like little Rachel hearing that I think would have been really helpful. And then I just, think that like this documentary and reflecting on America’s Next Top Model is a good reminder that all of us, like both young people, but also us as adults, like

Julie Duffy Dillon (33:08)

Mmm.

Rachel Popik (33:32)

We need to be more critical about the media we consume and how we consume it. like, ask yourself, like, why is this entertaining to me? I think it’s a really important thing, especially with the rise of like AI generated media and like, you know, kind of determining like what is real and what is not just being critical and asking yourselves those questions. Like, how is this entertaining to me? Why is this entertaining to me? Why am I choosing to spend my time consuming it?

Julie Duffy Dillon (33:40)

Mmm.

Rachel Popik (34:02)

think are just really important things to keep asking ourselves.

Julie Duffy Dillon (34:05)

Yeah, that’s so great. That’s a great place to stop. Is there anything else that you all have that we didn’t unpack? I think we need to watch the E1 next and see if there’s anything else. Yeah, same, same. Exactly. Yeah, it’s really great to be able to look back and see how far we’ve come and things we still need to learn, right? So thank you, team. I appreciate your time.

Coleen (she/her) (34:15)

Yes.

Rachel Popik (34:16)

I might need to a little bit of a break before I do that, but yes.

Coleen (she/her) (34:19)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rachel Popik (34:33)

and

Coleen (she/her) (34:34)

Thanks.

Julie Duffy Dillon (34:35)

So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this last Diet Culture IRL on the Find Your Food Voice podcast. And remember there is just one more episode of Find Your Food Voice left. That is gonna be an episode where my team and I have our own letters to food and we’re also sharing some things that you have let us know that you have learned from listening to the show over the years.

And while this is something that, you know, we are ready to close this chapter, it’s definitely bittersweet. So join us for this last episode. It’ll be in your ears in two weeks and until next time, take care.