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Hey there, welcome to episode 394 of the Find Your Food Voice podcast. I am Julie Duffy Dillon, registered dietician and your host, and I have a really special episode today. Today I got a chance to interview Fatema Jivanjee-Shakir who is a therapist and reached out to me to talk about her own complicated experience with food as she was navigating early parenthood. And so I’m really grateful that Fatema was willing to sit down with me and share these really vulnerable experiences that she had. And whether you have experienced breastfeeding or just taking care of a child and having to make decisions based on maybe some food intolerances or just accessibility, I think you’re going to find this episode really helpful. the thing that we Fatema and I really kind of came to after we were done recording is this experience of parenting or taking care of other people. Sometimes it doesn’t work out the way we’re thinking it’s going to. And while things may be okay, and we can feel really grateful, there’s always like this like bit of grief because it maybe didn’t turn out the way we thought it would.

So as you’re navigating this episode, as you’re listening, we hope that you have permission to move forward in the way that’s best for you, that’s accessible for you. And again, yeah, I’m just really grateful that she was willing to sit down and record this conversation. So before you get to hear from our guest, a very quick word from our sponsor.

Julie: Welcome back, Fannema, nice to see you.

Fatema: Thank you for having me. can’t believe it’s been like two years since we did this.

Julie: I can’t believe it either, like almost exactly two years and what the last couple years have done, like you have experienced lots and lots of changes. tell us, yeah, what’s been up with you?

Fatema: So I had a daughter who’s now 14 months old. This is my first time like having a child and being a parent. So it’s been a huge whirlwind of a change. Yeah.

Julie: Yeah, it’s like a shock to the system, right? It’s completely different.

Fatema: Yeah, it’s like, yeah, everything changes. And I think what’s like so beautiful and hard about it is like how much this little human needs you in a way that’s like different than when you’re pregnant, because they always need you when you’re pregnant, but it’s more of like a passive thing, right? Versus once they’re like on the outside, they need you in like very active ways. And there’s like a different sense of like interdependence that develops.

Julie: Very active. Yes, yes, I remember when I was pregnant with my daughter who’s now 16. like the last few weeks, few months, I remember complaining just like I felt so uncomfortable. My body was just like, I’m done with this. I felt like I’d been pregnant for like five years at that point. And one of my friends who had a couple of kids was like, just remember, she’s a lot easier to take care of where she is now than when she comes out. And I was like, but I’m so uncomfortable. But no, it’s true. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s like a such a big shift in the like how our brain experiences life. You know, it just is like Your everything changes, the schedule changes, sleep changes. And yes, it’s great, but it’s a big change. Yeah. We adapt. Yeah. That’s where all the like counseling training comes in handy. It’s like when you can use it for yourself.

Fatema: Yeah. And we adapt and yeah. Absolutely, and just like practicing acceptance and realizing that like you’re in a period of transition and that everything feels different and it’s okay if that feels scary or hard or beautiful all at once.

Julie: Exactly. We can hold all of those things. And I remember you mentioned when we are emailing about this episode that you experienced some things that impacted your own relationship with food because of some food intolerances you be willing to share with us what you experienced and what happened?

Fatema: Yeah, absolutely. a lot happened. I’ll try to kind of like streamline it. But essentially, after my daughter was born, I was not producing colostrum or breast milk. So usually that happens within like a few hours of the baby being born. And for me, I wasn’t even producing colostrum until four days after my baby was born. And Breastfeeding was something that I really wanted. It was a part of motherhood that I was excited for. And so from the get-go, I just remember feeling like my body was not good enough. Like, was I fit to like parent this child if I couldn’t even like nourish her from the time she was born? And I think like with food, the way it ended up impacting my relationship was I was trying to eat so many galactagogues, like oatmeal and flaxseed and brewer’s yeast to kind of get that breast milk production going. And so there was just kind of this like hyper focus on eating certain kinds of foods like to support this like goal that I had. So eventually I was able to produce milk, which was great. But I had this condition that I was also unaware of until I had a baby that makes it difficult for my chest to form in a way that supports a baby to love.

Fatema: And so even though I started producing milk, getting my daughter to latch to be able to feed off the breast was really, really hard. And I tried for six months, but essentially it wasn’t working. And so I was exclusively pumping, still am exclusively pumping. And I think that brought up just a lot of feelings of like, is my body good enough? What’s wrong with my body? And then about two months in, while we’re still trying to figure out this whole breastfeeding thing, we found out that my daughter had food intolerances. And so it started out with the doctors recommending that we cut out dairy and soy and that she should do better with that. She did not. And then there were more foods that I had to kind of cut out of my diet in order to continue breastfeeding. for her, we also had to cut out eggs, corn, and beef. And it was really important to me to try to breastfeed. I really, this was something I really wanted to try to do. And so I was open to kind of making the diet changes. And I learned a lot in the process. I had no idea how much like corn and soy there is like even in things that I had no idea there’s like soybean oil or corn flour. And so

Julie: Yes. Yes. Corn and soy are the toughest, I think. Yeah.

Fatema: Yeah, yeah, because I think dairy is something that people are a lot more like aware of. And so if I went to a restaurant and asked like for a dairy free meal, like most restaurants would like understand that, but things with like soy or corn were a lot harder. And so my diet became pretty restrictive in that way. And I also couldn’t like eat out at restaurants anymore because we had a couple of experiences where we would like communicate the food intolerances to the restaurant. would be like, yeah, there’s nothing in this. And I would eat and my daughter like would immediately like have a reaction. And so it got to the point where like I was cooking like all meals, all snacks, like everything at home. and then to make things even better, my daughter still was not growing. And so we were trying to figure out what was going on and I went from being someone who was not producing any breast milk to producing way too much breast milk. And so what was happening is the fat content was getting diluted across all of the milk I was producing. So the milk that she was drinking was not calorically dense enough for her to like be able to grow. And so then I had to do a bunch of stuff to like bring my milk supply down so that It was calorically dense enough. So just like a lot of different things.

Julie: Yeah, that sounds so exhausting in itself. And you’re already exhausted with a newborn no matter how they’re feeding. And even when it’s like there’s not any hiccup or anything. that sounds like so, yeah, I could just picture a roller coaster for you. And also like not being able to go out to restaurants, especially when your baby’s really little and just sleeps in a stroller. That’s like the chance you have to like get out and socialize. And I don’t know how important that is for you, but like for a lot of people, yeah, connecting with other human beings in real time can feel like, yeah, I just get a picture that you felt or you experienced a lot of isolation.

Fatema: Yeah, I think the one thing that was really nice was that it was committed to still socializing and being around people. And I knew I needed that for my own mental health. And so we would still go out. I would just prep food for myself and take it to a restaurant and I would just explain. And honestly, most restaurants were like very, very understanding about me bringing in my own food. And so it didn’t prevent me from socializing, I think it just kind of changed the sense of like connection that you can have over food. Because I was always eating something that was different from other people. Taking trips was harder. Like we did some trips with friends, we traveled internationally. And so there was just like more to plan and prep and bring. But I feel very grateful because One, places like Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s have had a lot of products that I could use as substitutions that did not have any of these things my daughter was intolerant of. And we had the financial capacity to be able to buy those things, which I realized like not everyone does. And also, even if you’re doing formula for the food intolerances, that formula is really, really expensive. Yeah. And so I think having access to those things was really helpful and just made things a lot easier.

Julie: Mm Well, you’re someone that I’ve known to be doing the work in like the non diet space for a while. So what was it like for you to have like these food rules? Did it feel weird?

Fatema: It was interesting. I think it was okay in the sense that like this didn’t feel like it was a diet. It felt like this was because of like I was doing this for like a medical reason. But a lot of people made comments to me about like, you’re probably gonna lose weight. Because a lot of what I would like pack when we were going out places with salads, because it was easy because I didn’t have to worry about like heating it up.

Fatema: You don’t always have access to a microwave at a restaurant. So I always do salads when we are going out. So people made a lot of comments like, you’re going to lose a lot of weight on this diet, et cetera, et cetera. And was like, that’s not why I’m doing this. And also newsflash, I did not lose weight doing these food restrictions. That was not the point. And I still eat really delicious food. I just learned different ways of cooking them.

Fatema: But I think what it ended up doing in my relationship with food is that I developed a huge sense of control because I was always preparing my own things and if we were going out for the day, I would pack a full day’s worth of food and snacks for myself. I got so used to always being in control of what I was eating and when I was eating that when it came time, to like reintroduce these allergens and like I could eat out or I could maybe like, you know, have some flexibility that it became really hard for me because I suddenly became like really fearful. Like, well, what if there is this allergen like in the food, even though my daughter was like, okay with it. I felt really scared and it brought up a lot of questions for me around like what’s my purpose? Like if I’m not following these food rules to nourish my baby in this way, then like what is my purpose as a parent?

Julie: Yeah, that makes sense because the beginning for you was all about these strategies of like, have to be the person basically like dodging all these different food restrictions. And so then when you didn’t have to do that anymore, they’re like, well, then what’s my job? Is that what you’re saying? It just felt like you didn’t have the same kind of role to play.

Fatema: Yeah, exactly. And I think that was just like really, just really scary for me because I was, it was a shifting part of my identity. And I think a lot of people had come to kind of know me for like having these food restrictions because any social setting we were in, I was always eating something different. So a lot of times people would ask or make comments about it. And so it’s kind of like how I became known. Even though people knew me before, I had a baby and had these restrictions. And so there was also kind of like a loss of identity, I think, that came with that. And I had to kind of re-figure out who am I outside of these food restrictions. And that was really challenging. And even introducing these allergens to my daughter, I was I was really scared because of what we saw her go through in those early days of like, what if she has a reaction? What if it affects her growth? And so I just noticed like becoming really fearful. And then I think the other thing is I noticed that like my food palette had changed a lot. Like these things that I used to love eating, like when I started reintroducing them into my diet, I actually did not like a lot of them because I had stopped eating them for like nine months that like, they didn’t taste good anymore. And so I had to kind of like reacclimate my body to like, what is it like to like eat an egg, for example, which I used to eat eggs all the time prior to having to them out. And so it was hard to kind of like help my body learn how to relike foods that it used to enjoy.

Julie: If someone’s in the place where you were, when you were like, maybe in the place where you were having to cut out all these foods to be able to continue to produce milk and feel, you know, someone who’s maybe in that moment feeling overwhelmed, what do you, and I also thinking like, what did you need back then? Like, what did you need from your community, you know, your support systems, or is there anything that someone can say to help you?

Fatema: Yeah, I think something that was really helpful for me was having both like logistical and emotional support. So I like, my husband was really great about going to different stores and like buying very specific items so that I could still have joy with food. Cause we were like, if I’m going to do this, like I still need to enjoy eating. And so having that logistical support of someone who would go and do the labor of buying these groceries was so helpful. And then I think the emotional validation of that I was a good mom, that I was taking care of my baby even when I felt like I was struggling too. Even though I couldn’t believe those things when people were saying them, I think it was still very helpful to hear it.

I felt I was lucky enough. I was able to find a lactation consultant who was also a pediatrician who had lived experience like with kids who had the same intolerances. And working with her was so helpful because she could scientifically see it from all different angles and she also understood what my experience had been. And so I think just being able to like talk to her.

Julie: wow, the trifecta.

Fatema: Felt so comforting and made me feel less alone about the whole experience.

Julie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the times when you’re talking about connecting with your body, not doing what you were expecting it to do, it sounds like that’s the part that has the most emotion stuck to it. I would imagine, what am I imagining? I’m thinking about how that may have been surprising and also still, there still may be pain. And I don’t know if pain’s the right word, but there’s still something there.

Julie: Would you be willing to talk about that a little bit?

Fatema: Yeah, I think it’s really hard when you have certain hopes and dreams for what your body’s gonna be able to do and how it’s gonna be able to support your child. And when it’s not able to do that, it’s really painful. And it made me just question so much of like, is something wrong with my body? Is my body good enough? And it just felt like my body was failing me and failing my baby in so many ways. And I like, you know, when I was pregnant, I heard a lot of people talk about like body image postpartum and like how that’s hard because your body changes so much in pregnancy. I felt like that was not even those were not even the thoughts that were crossing my mind because my mind was so focused on my like my body image as it related to like being able to like care for this human. Less so like what it was like looking like. And I think yeah, there’s a lot of pain there where I can appreciate that my body was able to sustain life and grow my daughter and eventually was able to produce breast milk for her. But it still felt like there was a betrayal there.

Julie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I wonder like, this may be me going into like the fix it mode, but I’m like, I wonder what we can break down in the systems to like prevent people moving forward, having that kind of experience, that kind of pain of like, because your body didn’t do anything wrong. But like, there’s, you know, there’s these beliefs that I remember getting. Breastfeeding was also hard for me, but in a different way. And yeah, I thought it was just going to happen. I didn’t think that there was going to be any issue. And then meeting with lactation consultant was like, saved it. I still remember being in the hospital, I forgot to bring my contacts. did I not bring my? For some reason, I didn’t have my contacts in and I didn’t bring my glasses, something like that. Because I remember I couldn’t see and I was like, walking around my hospital room without a shirt on because it was so painful. Someone walked in my room and I didn’t care because whatever, I’d just given birth and I was so upset because I wasn’t able to feed her. When I realized who it was, I was like, my goodness, thank you for coming into my room. Now help me. I wish there was a way we can locate where this thing is growing and living and all of us of like we’re doing it wrong if we don’t do it in a certain way or and I don’t know. I again I’m like I think it’s just the fix it part of my brain that probably is like let’s change it and maybe you know talking about is one way we can do that that like we may have surprises and yeah you we can prepare for some things but not for all of them and you know the the thing that I hear from you is like how much you love this baby and how much you were trying and trying and trying. You were trying everything to be able to make it work. And your partner was also doing everything he could do to help you to make it work. that is really, that’s so beautiful that just even trying to figure it out. for some people, maybe they’re not gonna be able to navigate it in the way you did. And Same like we all love these babies, you know, and like we’re just trying the best we can. And I think it’s so interesting that like as you’re navigating all of this and like how our bodies change postpartum, there’s there is like this flood of comments that people make some of it is like, I think people think they’re supposed to tell us that we look good or something. I don’t know if you got that weird kind of.

Fatema: I had an episode, I had people tell me, you still look pregnant. Two days after I gave birth, I was like yeah, it’s been two days.

Julie: Why are people talking about bodies? Yeah, yeah, that was something that I wish people would have told me like, how like, that that, like, if you had a body that had a pregnancy kind of belly, that it would take a while for that to go down. No one told me that. But when you were doing all those restrictions, how people were making comments to that is, I would imagine that was pretty shocking. And, like,

Fatema: Yeah. Yeah. And like, I was pretty open with people about like the reason that I was doing it. So people knew like this was coming from a place of like my daughter having these intolerances and it was not me on a diet. It was not me trying to change my body. But I think, know, that’s reflective of a lot of the things that they’re probably struggling with. Like when they see someone of cutting out these things, not being able to

Julie: Kinda gives me the ick.

Fatema: eat a lot of desserts, because they have eggs and dairy, et cetera, in most desserts. I think that’s like, it was reflecting to them like something that they’re still like working through and struggling with. And, you know, on the flip side, like, I had other people who are also like quite dismissive of the issue where they would be like, no, you can eat this. There’s like nothing in it. And I’d be like, Okay, can you tell me what you put in it? And be like, No, but you just said you put like So no, I can’t eat it. They’re like, no, but it’ll be fine. I’m like, no, this is a serious thing. I have seen my daughter not eat. I’ve seen her not grow as a result of having these foods. it’s not important enough to me to try this really delicious thing you made if it means that it’s gonna be affecting my baby. I think, you know, with the identity piece, I think there was, there were some people who saw this as like a diet weight loss option and kind of like put me on a pedestal for following these food restrictions of like, you have great discipline. Like, you know, your body’s going to be looking great after this. and I can understand where it comes from. But none of this for me was coming from a place of discipline. It was just me trying to fulfill a goal that I had to the best that I could do it.

Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm. I could appreciate how that got woven into though when you were able to move away from excluding these foods, how that made it more challenging because yeah, that’s how people were kind of, that was one of the identities you just developed. So if someone’s listening and like, They just got this news, they have to cut out all the things you just said. What do you want to say to them?

Fatema: I think before I answer that, there was actually one more thing that came to mind that I think is, like, would be important to share. And I think in this experience, I developed a lot of, like, fear and scarcity mindset around food. And that’s something that I’m still dealing with. And I think it was a mix of, like, I always had to, like, be on top of, like, the grocery list and the meal planning, because there was this fear that, like, well, if I don’t do this, like, we will go hungry because we won’t have food, we won’t be able to order out, we just don’t have that flexibility. And so I think I just grew out of fear mindset, but there was also scarcity mindset because there would be some times where my husband would go grocery shopping and the store’s not carrying this particular item that week. And so then that would kind of throw off the menu that I had planned for the week.

Julie:Yeah, that makes sense.

Fatema (26:14)

And so then I also kind of got into this mindset of like buying multiples of things that were like, you know, for as long as they would last. because I never wanted to like run short or like beat out of things. so even though like now I’m not following these food restrictions and we can order out, we can be flexible. sometimes I still buy multiple of things that I don’t actually need multiple of because I just, I’m just scared.

Julie: Yeah, there’s something in your brain that’s like, yeah, be prepared. That reminds me a lot of like the diet mindset for a lot of people who have chronically dieted how that lingers for years and years. And yeah, so hope you’re being gentle with yourself when you notice yourself doing that. Like, it may take a while for it to like ease up, right? I mean, it’s just your body and your mind are still repairing, you know, and

Fatema: Yeah, it’s something I’m still actively practicing. Like it’s really hard to like go to the store and like just buy one of something. And like I have to kind of stand there and like talk to myself and be like, no, like it’s okay. Like you can come back next week. Like if you only need one, like just take one. I think like you said, it’s a lot of like I’m learning and I think it’s going to take some time to kind of to.

Julie: Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for adding that too, because I think that’s something that’s going to be helpful for someone who maybe is in the beginning to know that’s ahead. this can happen to anybody, right? Like most people don’t know that they’re going to have to do this type of exclusions with food. And for people who are recovering from an eating disorder or recovering from dieting, Yeah, I hope they can pull from their toolbox of be kind to yourself and gentle as you’re navigating this and then as you move away from having to cut out things because maybe the reason behind it is different than other times. Maybe someone’s excluded a food, but it can still have the same kind of impact.

Julie: So how about we end on, any words you’d have for someone who’s in the middle or maybe just beginning this process of having to, I don’t know, they’re just starting that roller coaster that you described. What do you wish they knew?

Fatema: Yeah. I wish they knew that it’s going to be okay. I think in the beginning it can be really scary and hard. I know when I started making those transitions, like there were times where I had slip ups, like I didn’t realize there was like dairy and something and I would, I accidentally ate it and halfway through I feel like, like I ate this thing and then I would end up feeling like really guilty about it but it’s okay when those things happen, right? Like we, one, you’re trying the best you can. And if it’s something that you’ve never done before, it’s normal to like need time to get used to like looking out for these allergens. And so I think having that patience and grace with oneself is so important and realizing that like, it’s also okay to use formula. Like in my journey, There were times where we used formula because I was transitioning like into the diet or we were traveling or what have you and It’s okay. The most important thing is that Your baby is taken care of right and you are trying to do that in whatever ways you can and if you want to Try cutting out these allergens and you know, see if you can maintain that maintain breastfeeding. That’s great if you find that know, this is not something you want to do or something that you can do or you feel like it’s triggering old behaviors or triggering an eating disorder, that’s also okay. Like you, don’t have to do this. Like we are so lucky that we live in a world that has these allergen friendly formulas that ensure that our babies can be nourished and that we don’t have to carry that full responsibility.

Julie: for you the listener, I just want to give you a little, I don’t know, just a little bit behind the scenes. We were chatting after we stopped recording, which is what we always do, and decided that we had a few more things to say. so what I’m wondering is, is What advice would you give someone who’s deciding whether or not to do the food restrictions or to use formula? Do you know what I mean?

Fatema: Yeah, I think that’s a great question and I think there’s so many different factors to consider. I think the first thing is giving yourself time and space to grieve, right? Grieve that perhaps this journey of nourishing your baby does not look like what you were hoping it would look like and it’s okay to grieve that. I know for myself I felt a lot of guilt, I felt a lot of shame. And then I also felt bad for like struggling and like feeling sad about all of it. And so I had to give myself that space and that patience to, to recognize that it was hard. And I think already like having a child is difficult, right? Like they, they communicate to you in ways that are different from the ways that we’re used to communicating because they don’t have the verbal language that we often have to communicate what’s going on with our bodies or how we’re feeling. And so you’re trying to figure out what’s happening for your baby. You know they’re not okay and you don’t exactly know why and you don’t exactly know how to fix it. And I think as a parent, you have to give yourself that grace and patience that like you are trying your very best. And as you’re making decisions about, you know, how to go about this nourishment journey. I think it’s important to reflect on like, what is your goal? What do you want to do? What do you feel like you have capacity for? And what do you have access to? If you are wanting to go the route of making these food restrictions, is it something that is going to be okay for your mental health? Because for some people it might trigger eating disorder behaviors, whether that might be new behaviors, maybe it triggers an eating disorder, or disordered eating that you already struggled with. Perhaps you have other medical conditions that you also need to manage and adding in the food restrictions might make that harder for you. Also just thinking from like a time perspective, right? If you’re having to like meal prep so much and buy special groceries? Like, do you have the time and energy for that? Do you have the financial capacity for that? And do you want to do it? Right? Like, how does it end up impacting your relationship with your baby? I remember for myself, at one point, I was thinking about like, how much time am I spending on cooking all this food and pumping? And is it taking away from the quality of time that I’m spending with my baby? And there were times where I considered stop it because I was like, actually, maybe this is like taking away from that joy of, of parenting because I’m so focused on trying to get all these things right. and so, you know, if it feels like that’s not the right choice for you, I think formula is also a really great option. It ensures that your baby is nourished. There’s still so many ways to bond with baby when you’re feeding through a bottle. It’s something I had to, had to learn since I did not end up having that typical breastfeeding journey and if it makes you feel better, makes your baby feel nourished, that’s all that matters. At the end of the day, all that matters is you and the child and your family and that you’re together and feeling loved. So I would say…

Julie: Yeah, like it’s the relationship. Yeah, more than like how you’re feeding. It’s like that you are feeding. And yeah, and that you’re maintaining that relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s so important that we, we name all of that, you know, because what one person’s able to do and the choices that they have to make, it doesn’t

Julie: like that’s all being a good mom, know, or a good parent is, you know, choosing whatever option. And there’s certainly folks that I’ve worked with when, when they were clients of mine who the only way that they could recover from their eating disorder was to use formula. Like it’s just wasn’t going to be a way for them to be able to not use formula and maintain some kind of recovery and that was like really brave, you know, to be able to do that for themselves. And yeah, I always think about them of like, I hope they know that they made the hard choice and that was really, really important. And yeah, and finding a way to do the diet changes if you’re able to do that and that works for you, then that’s great too. So I’m glad we jumped back on and clarified this. Yeah, yeah.

Fatema: Me too. Yeah, in a book that I was just thinking about is something that my lactation consultant had recommended to me. It’s called Good Moms Have Scary Thoughts. I actually think this is a great book for like all parents, like regardless of whether you were the one who was carrying the child or not, regardless of like your sex or gender. I think it highlights a lot of these fear-based thoughts that parents had, especially in those early days, a lot of which have to do around like food and body, but the book covers like the whole range of them. And I think that was something that was really, really helpful for my husband and I as we were kind of navigating these food intolerances and just trying to grow our little one.

Julie: Hmm, that’s a good recommendation. I’ll have to check that out. So if someone wants to know more about the work you’re doing, where can they find you?

Fatema:You can find me at my website, is fjshakir.com or you can find me on Instagram at Your South Asian Therapist.

Julie: So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Fatema. I feel just so like honored that she was willing to be vulnerable and share her experience with us. And if you would like to get to know more of her work or find any of the resources mentioned in this episode, they will be in the show notes for you. And we’ll also make sure that we put the episode that she was in before two years ago also in the show notes so you can hear more about what she has to say about her own relationship with food and steps moving forward. So, If you enjoyed this episode, we’d love it if you would follow or subscribe and we will be here next week for another Find Your Food Voice episode. Until then, take care.