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Julie Duffy Dillon (00:00)

Great news, the Find Your Food Voice book is ready for pre-order. You can get to it at julieduffydillon.com/book. Again, the Find Your Food Voice book, the book you need to help you reconnect to your own innate eating wisdom and help you break free from diet culture. I have written this book for you and I’m so excited to bring it to you. Get to it at julieduffydillon.com/book.

Julie Duffy Dillon (00:26)

Welcome to episode 404 of the Find Your Food Voice podcast with Lisa Ellis, where we want you to stop feeling bad about eating certain foods. Let’s get to it.

Julie Duffy Dillon (01:59)

Hey there, voice finder. I’m Julie Duffy Dillon, registered dietitian and your host. this episode is for you. If you ever said, I am bad for eating that. It’s something that I feel to my core as so important to take a really like like a big magnifying glass and just examine what you’re doing. when you say you are bad for eating that, how that really gets into your psyche and it impacts your own food voice. It keeps you from honoring your own innate wisdom so much of how we’ve been trained to think about food from the diet industry and everything tied to it has made talking about food as good versus bad normal eating. And that’s something that Lisa and I talk about. We also talk about why this impacts our relationship with food, and some first steps, especially if you’re new to this process, from some first steps to help you to start to mend. Now, if you’ve been around the block a few times, there’s also some gems that Lisa delivers at the end of the interview, that are some mantras that you may find helpful to put in that toolbox something I know to be true is that we all emotionally eat. It’s something that’s a normal part of living in this world. It always has been, it always will be, and it’s a way we can cope. The world is pretty effed up right now, right? So you’re gonna need more coping skills. Something Lisa and I also talk about in this episode is how we’re probably all feeling more anxious and having this kind of black and white thinking about food, how to, in a way, calm us. But as the world is wobbly, you’re probably gonna wanna have more things in your toolbox to help you cope. So I hope that this episode delivers just that Before we get to the interview, remember the Find Your Food Voice book is in pre-order. And by pre-ordering, you probably have heard this before, in the whole book publishing industry, pre-ordering is a really big deal because it helps to tell bookstores how many books to order, to order any at all. And so by you pre-ordering the Find Your Food Voice book, not only will you get it delivered on March 25th, have it in your hands or have it on your Kindle, It is also something that will help me and my team to be able to promote this book, to have more people access it, and to help support us as we continue to make this podcast. So you can get to it at julieduffydillon.com slash book. And when you do that, make sure, make sure that you put in there that you have pre-ordered, there’s a spot for you to enter your email and your address because you do get some free things with a pre-order.

And I’m working on some really fun things behind the scenes that I’m wanting to do because I want to help support you as you are working through this book. It is something that I see as a compassionate voice with some practical tips to help you navigate just your relationship with food and helping you to come home to yourself so you don’t have to rely on another diet ever again.

So again, you can get to it at julieduffydillon.com slash book. All right, we’re gonna pause for a quick sponsor break and then we’ll be back with my interview with Lisa Ellis.

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:29)

Hey there, Lisa, how are you doing?

Lisa Ellis (05:31)

Julie, I’m well, thank you. How are you today?

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:34)

I’m great. It’s great to see you again. I know it’s been a very long time. We’ve crossed paths at some kind of conference, but it’s good to actually talk to you. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, unpacking this kind of good, bad conversation that is just so normal with food. And I don’t know about you, but whenever I’m talking to like friends who are not in this industry at all and they’ll say something random about food and they’ll be like, oh, it’s just so bad. I get kind of like a little tick or something and I’m like, do I say anything? And I’m I’m clocked out right now. Is it gonna be worth the bandwidth? And the people that I have said some things to before about it, they have noticed my tick or they’ll be like, oh, Julie doesn’t like when we talk about food this way or, know. Anyway. I say all this because it’s just normal. It’s normal eating. I don’t like that it’s normal, but it’s like the average typical. what, I know you would agree on this part. Like there’s no like good or bad foods. Why is that important to you to like really spend some time talking about?

Lisa Ellis (06:51)

Yeah. Well, when people label foods as good and bad, you know, it sort of leads to that, I’m bad, right? If I eat a bad food, it kind of goes into that self judgment. And for many people, it perpetuates that all or nothing eating. I ate a bad food. So, well, now I might as well just keep going as opposed to saying, you know what? This is part of normal eating you know, my, always ask people, what’s your definition of a bad food? When they say, when they use that word, I say, what’s your definition of a bad food? And typically I’ll hear cookies or cake or ice cream or, you know, donuts. And then I said, well, do you want to know my definition? And they say, sure. And I show them photos. Well, this is a bad food and it’s moldy grapes. This is a bad food and it’s a piece of stale bread. Right? Those are bad foods. Sour milk. That’s a bad food. Beyond that, they’re all just food and they can fit into a healthy intake. know, balancing, call them nourishing foods versus fun foods. I just like that terminology. So balancing, nourishing and fun foods, I think is really important and teaching people how to balance them.

Julie Duffy Dillon (07:56)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Why is it so hard to do that in your in your opinion? Like, why has it become so hard to include all these foods and not like internalize this like moral kind of connection to food?

Lisa Ellis (08:24)

I think when people are restricting, so they’re only eating good foods, it’s easier to stay with it. Once they start adding foods, fun foods, they start to feel like they deviated from what they should be eating. I call it those, the shoulds, which was really, there’s so much judgment in there. And then it just keeps going. So I really work with people on mindful eating.

Lisa Ellis (08:53)

Can you slowly eat that piece of chocolate? Really enjoy it. Because when you really enjoy it, when you connect the brain and the gut, it’s so much more satisfying.

Julie Duffy Dillon (09:04)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know what I noticed too, is that when the the label good or bad is in there. And like you said, people will find themselves like being kind of quote good for I don’t know, a longer period of time, and it feels great. And but eventually, Not everyone, but for most people, eventually, there’s going to come a time where this other food that’s labeled as bad is just super appealing or the only option or they’re starving or whatever. And what I see is like the part that is like the big whammy of it all is like how bad that people feel like and it just kind of keeps that like this back and forth that is just so extreme. When again, in reality, like, there’s no good or bad food, you and I are dietitians. We are saying there’s no good or bad food, so you don’t need to label it that way. And then also, that doesn’t mean that you are doing anything wrong. If we could take that steam out of it, then it would prevent that exhaustion back and forth. And I hear so much shame when people finally do eat those bad foods. Do you hear that too? There’s just so much shame and blame. I feel like such a bad person for eating this. That’s where I see so many people get stuck in that spot.

Lisa Ellis (10:27)

Yes, it goes to the core of who they are. That’s really what shame does. Shame is a joy-robbing emotion, right? It just robs you of joy. And it goes to the, I’m a bad person. And eating a fun food is meant to bring joy. It is part of a normal intake. You go out to celebrate someone’s birthday, you eat cake.

Lisa Ellis (10:56)

You drink champagne. So it’s such a normal part and an OK part. And I just think that a lot of people are very perfectionistic. I’m seeing that more and more as anxiety increases. There’s a lot going on in the world for people. It makes sense that there’s more anxiety showing itself. And I think along with that increase in anxiety comes that rigidity. It’s almost like having a rule in place, like food rules, brings down anxiety. So that’s why people do it, because it works. You don’t do something that doesn’t work, right? So it works. And because it works, people do it more often. And the more you practice something, whether it be something beneficial for you or something detrimental, the more you practice it, the better you get at it. So the more you label a food as good or bad,

Julie Duffy Dillon (11:31)

yeah, it’s so good at it. Yes.

Lisa Ellis (11:56)

the better you get at labeling a food as good or bad.

Julie Duffy Dillon (11:59)

Yeah, yeah, those become like really like well maintained roads in that brain. Yes, yes. Yes, there’s asphalt, there’s like a super highway. It’s very efficient into that. Yeah.

Lisa Ellis (12:06)

Absolutely, the deep, deep, I say deep, deep roads and yes, yes. And I explained to my clients, you if you think about a chair on a rug, right? It has, move the chair and you see divots in the rug still, right? From the impressions where the chair was. It takes such a long time for that to pop back up, but it will. It’s the same thing with these habits.

Julie Duffy Dillon (12:32)

Yes.

Lisa Ellis (12:34)

right? These habits are so entrenched and so ingrained, it’s going to take a long time for them to really change completely. So it’s a process. Can you do a little bit? Can you do it? Can you do it once? If you can do it once, then maybe you can do it twice. And so that’s it.

Julie Duffy Dillon (12:48)

Well, if someone is wanting to like start to mend this process, that that doing it once can feel like such a big step. So do you have any direction for someone who’s like, Okay, I appreciate that I just am really perfectionistic about food, or there’s this really rigid side to it. And I want to practice doing something differently. Yeah, what are some things that you would recommend to someone who’s like brand new to this?

Lisa Ellis (13:21)

Set themselves up for success. So in other words, if evening snacking, sometimes people say to me, you know, I don’t eat breakfast, I eat very little lunch, and then I eat a large dinner and then a huge snack, you know, I kind of eat all night. And I’m like, well, your body is hungry. It didn’t get food earlier in the day. So, you know, can you have breakfast one time this week? You know, give me a list of foods that you especially like for breakfast.

Julie Duffy Dillon (13:24)

Okay. Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ellis (13:50)

Can we pick your favorite? Set it up. Can you buy it the day before? Can you write it down and put it on the table? You know, all of these tools are designed to make it more likely to follow through. If it’s the evening, some people have a habit of just eating a lot of food at night when they’re not really hungry. Can you set yourself up for success? Can you get your favorite movie ready to go?

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:05)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lisa Ellis (14:19)

Can you take a nice bubble bath right before? know, whatever speaks to them to set themselves up for success so that they can see that they can do it once.

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:29)

Yeah, to get that experience so their brain can remember they’ve had this experience. Yeah, you need it. You basically need to like, remind your brain that you can do these things. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Lisa Ellis (14:40)

Absolutely. So much of it is self-talk and self-kindness. We’re so good at beating ourselves up. Right?

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:48)

Yeah, we are. I think it’s what we’re trained to do now, especially with food and body. And you’re right, things are, I will use this word the other day, like things are wobbly right now, right? such a minimization, I appreciate, but like it’s just things feel a bit odd and uncomfortable and scary. so yeah, like things like anxiety are gonna increase and how you explained how rigid thinking about food is connected to anxiety. I mean, that makes so much sense to me in that as part of the diet industry and diet culture often will show up as this like beautiful bouquet of flowers of like, see if you do this, I will take care of you and I’ll make everything right. I think it’s so seductive, right?

Lisa Ellis (15:40)

gosh.

Julie Duffy Dillon (15:40)

And that’s how it’ll be delivered is like, if you just follow these rules or eat just good, then I will provide for you. And what a wonderful distraction when things feel so wobbly, you know? And so I can appreciate, you know, for you the listener, if you’re like, I’m not ready to do this work right now, because it sounds like a lot. Well, then that’s fine. You know, it’ll be there when you’re ready. But baby step, yeah.

Lisa Ellis (15:52)

Absolutely. Absolutely, baby step. One little tiny baby step. Can you do one thing towards it, right?

Julie Duffy Dillon (16:08)

Yes, even just, right. And I even think about even just knowing that that something like naming like, I may have some rigid thinking about food, even just doing that is like a really big step. But are there any resources that you have found to be in particular helpful for people who are doing this work with like good or bad thinking with food?

Lisa Ellis (16:29)

so there are food diaries where they can kind of keep track of their hunger and fullness cues as well. think that’s important. Not focusing on calories, not focusing on macros, but really focusing on how did it make me feel? Was I hungry? Did I eat when I was hungry? Did I wait till I was over hungry? Your brain is wired for survival. It’s going to make you want to eat more. And so.

Lisa Ellis (16:55)

Can you eat when you’re hungry, comfortably hungry, and stop when you’re comfortably full? You know, some of the intuitive eating, you know, the principles of intuitive eating are just so fabulous. So that is definitely, yeah, one of the best resources, I think.

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:02)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I just got a chance to interview Elise Rush a few episodes ago. So if you’re listening and you’re like, I want to know more, go to episode 400. And you can hear from her. Yeah, that was a big thing that she talked about too. then, and keeping in mind so much of the conversation is, you know, learning about what your body is telling you, but then also

Lisa Ellis (17:18)

Fabulous. That’s just the end.

Julie Duffy Dillon (17:38)

giving yourself so much compassion, like that’s a part of intuitive eating and part of the principles. And so that maybe that’s where you’re going to start is really just, you know, giving yourself the compassion that you need. Again, while time is so wobbly right now. And yes, and so I know you do a lot of work with your clients on this. Are there any resources that you currently have for clients that can help support them as they’re like working through some of this?

Lisa Ellis (17:55)

Yes. Sure, sure. So I’m big on like meditation. You know, if we’re going to take away food as the coping mechanism, which it does serve for many people, I’m feeling sad, I’ll eat a cookie. So if we’re going to take away food as that coping mechanism, we have to put something else in its place. Right. I can’t I can’t tell you to take off your shoes and walk on the hot coals. You need to protect your feet. Right.

Lisa Ellis (18:33)

Well, you need to protect your emotions. We take away food as your coping mechanism, now what? So meditation can be really, really helpful in bringing down anxiety levels. Gratitude journals. It’s hard to feel anxious and bad about yourself when you’re also thinking about things for which you’re grateful. I also, my book, I wrote a book.

Lisa Ellis (18:59)

I have some great tools and strategies in there in terms of actual exercises, actual ways to practice doing things differently.

Julie Duffy Dillon (19:12)

That’s the name of your book.

Lisa Ellis (19:14)

The name of my book is Why Did I Just Eat That? Oh, there it is. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (19:16)

All right. OK, awesome. We’ll put a link to it in the show notes for anyone listening who’s like, yep, I think I’m ready to do that kind of work. And where can people find you if they want to know more about you and connect with you?

Lisa Ellis (19:22)

Great. Yes, so www.integratingnutrition.com or at Lisa Lsrdmsw is my handle.

Julie Duffy Dillon (19:43)

Okay, well, we’ll put everything in the show notes too for ways for people to connect with you. And I appreciate this chat so much. I’m glad we had a chance to like dig into some of these topics about good versus bad foods. And hopefully we can help wherever listener where you are in this process for you to like get started where you are today to help you move forward. And if you could just remove the shame and the blame, I think it’ll help you move forward.

Lisa Ellis (20:07)

Yeah, and there’s one mantra that I ask people to live by. I just think it is so freeing, and that is, it seemed like a good idea at the time. And you can use that in every single part of your life. Let’s say you say something to someone, you know, in that moment, it seemed like a good idea. Afterwards, you might think, why did I say that, right? We all make mistakes. That’s the other thing. There is no such thing as perfection.

Julie Duffy Dillon (20:11)

tell me. gosh, no. I know, and trying to keep moving toward it when it doesn’t exist, it’s just hurting us and distracting us from what really we need to be doing. Yeah.

Lisa Ellis (20:38)

Right. Absolutely. we say, yes. And yes, I mean, we can have that self-compassion, that self-forgiveness, right? Oops, I made a mistake. well, seemed like a good idea at the time. Let’s move forward. You know, that’s why pencils have erasers. Everyone makes mistakes. So yes.

Julie Duffy Dillon (20:53)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Oh, I love that. So there you have it. That pencils have erasers and it sounded like a good idea at the time. I love that. That is so compassionate. So Lister, I hope that helps you fill your toolbox of some new ideas. And thank you so much, Lisa, for your time. I appreciate it so much.

Lisa Ellis (21:16)

it was a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Julie Duffy Dillon (21:20)

So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lisa Ellis all about good versus bad foods and how to mend this kind of complicated wiring that you have in your head because there are no good or bad foods. There’s no perfection and your worth has nothing to do with the food that you are choosing. I also think the good or bad food conversation just gets so much in the way of eating enough and that is priority number one. let you go, remember the Find Your Food Voice book will be here in exactly one month and you can pre-order it at JulieDuffyDillon.com slash book. Doing so is a great help to me and to my team and to help bookstores to know to order it. So thank you in advance for supporting us. I’m excited for next week’s episode. It’s gonna be an interview. with someone who has a specialization in diabetes and non-diet work. And my episode with Elyse Resch, episode 400 that I mentioned earlier in this episode, we talked a little bit about it and I got many DMs and emails where people were asking for more information specifically on blood sugar and diabetes. So I’m excited to bring you that interview next week, but until next time, take care.