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Julie Duffy Dillon (00:00)

Great news, the Find Your Food Voice book is ready for pre-order. You can get to it at julieduffydillon.com slash book. Again, the Find Your Food Voice book, the book you need to help you reconnect to your own innate eating wisdom and help you break free from diet culture. I have written this book for you and I’m so excited to bring it to you. Get to it at julieduffydillon.com slash book.

Julie Duffy Dillon (00:26)

Welcome to episode 406 of the Find Your Food Voice podcast. Today we’re talking about cannabis and intuitive eating with Leah Kern. Let’s get to it. I am Julie Duffy Dillon, registered dietitian and your host. Welcome to this episode, voice finder. We are going to be talking about intuitive eating as it relates to cannabis use. And I was really intrigued when Leah Kern reached out to me to talk about this on the podcast. And I don’t think I’ve talked about it before, besides maybe some like peripheral kind of mentions of weed. And when she said she wanted to specifically talk about intuitive eating and the experiences that her clients have been bringing to her and her own personal lived experience with recovering from disordered eating and using intuitive eating, how kind of cannabis wove into there? I was like, yeah, we need to talk about this. This is an episode where we talk about the, the intersection of trying to mend your relationship with food using something like intuitive eating or other non-diet tools and also using cannabis So one of the things in particular that we spent a lot of time on is the experience of feeling out of control or binge eating while high. Like, why does this happen? What can someone do about it? What is it giving you insight on? Because there’s like nuggets of wisdom there. Now, if you’re like me and, you know, I’ve I’ve tried a few funny cigarettes in my day, but I’m not someone that uses cannabis at this point in my life. So if you’re like me and you’re not using cannabis, this episode can also bring you some new insight because we talk about other types of tools that you can use to help your brain to experience different neuro pathways just for a moment. And I let you know some of the tools that I’ve used to help me just to consider some new possibilities in my work and my writing and some creative pursuits, how I’ve used other modalities that just seemed kind of familiar as.

Leah was talking about cannabis use and the intuitive eating process. So we’re gonna get to this episode with Leah in just a minute. But before we do, a quick mention, of course, the Find Your Food Boys book is almost here. It’s in pre-order. It’s just a few weeks away. Oh, it’s so exciting for it to finally happen. It does feel like the longest labor I’ve ever been through. I’ve only given birth one time and it was over 24 hours long, but

This is a lot longer, but it also is super sweet for you to be able to also hold this book. And if you are listening, you can’t see the book. If you’re on YouTube, of course you can. My Find Your Voice book is in my hands and it’ll be in yours soon too. So go to JulieDuffyDillon.com slash book to pre-order and also be on the lookout for an invitation to a launch party. I’m doing one in person and also one virtually so you can get to it also there as well. All right, we are gonna get to my interview with Leah after a very quick sponsor break.

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:47)

Hey, Leah, welcome to the show.

Leah (04:50)

Hi Julie, I’m so excited to chat with you. I feel connected already.

Julie Duffy Dillon (04:53)

I know you have been such a trooper. had so many tech issues and of course it was my fault with the gain, but hey, we made it work. I think it’s like, we just had to make it work because this conversation is so important. this is the first time I think cannabis has been discussed on my podcast. If it has been discussed, it’s been very like, just like.

Leah (05:00)

Yeah, here we are.

Julie Duffy Dillon (05:16)

I don’t know, and the periphery acknowledged but never really explored. So thank you for connecting with me and I’m excited to have this chance to talk about this. So let’s start with like why you are so passionate about the intersection of cannabis and intuitive eating. Like why do you wanna talk about this?

Leah (05:18)

Totally. Yeah, totally. pretty much I, like so many dietitians, had my own shit with food, right? I healed my relationship with food through intuitive eating and cannabis is a part of my story and still is and was. I went to college in Vermont at the University of Vermont, which is like cannabis-centric place. And so what I was finding in my own journey was I was like, great, intuitive eating, binging was stopping, I was feeling better. But when I would use cannabis, was like all those things went out the window. And I just kind of was like, it kind of felt like I had to choose. Like either I could be an intuitive eater or cannabis could be part of my life, but these things probably couldn’t coexist. And then fast forward, know, when I became a dietitian, started my practice, started seeing clients for whatever reason, I was attracting folks who use cannabis and It wasn’t like I wasn’t advertising that, but you’re talking about people’s relationship with food and their stories. And sometimes it comes up of like, I had an edible or I smoked weed and I ate my face off. I felt disgusting. I had a food hangover or whatever. And then I started really starting to see some trends of like, these are kind of common ways that this shows up for clients. And then connecting it back to my own story. And I was like, there’s nothing out here about this. Like people, it leaves people feeling like, I guess, like how I felt. I guess you have to choose. I guess I can’t have this thing that’s a part of my life, whether it’s for like recreation or medicinal or whatever, and also have a peaceful relationship with food. And that’s not true. It’s absolutely not true, which is why I got so passionate about this topic.

Julie Duffy Dillon (07:05)

Well, I’m glad that you’re talking about it. Yeah. And whenever we find a spot that hasn’t been really sifted through, we need to go there. And so I’m glad that you did that. Like, we need this as a part of the conversation. So something that I think about, and you know, I’m almost 50. So like, I probably still call it pot. And my kids are like, ma, my parents are like, they don’t call it pot anymore, mom. But whatever. But the thing that was a part of when I was in a place where this was something that many people in my life were doing. I was not someone that really found myself using a lot of cannabis, but people in my life who did, the big complaint was like, my gosh, when I do smoke, I find myself not able to stop eating or I have the munchies. And so is that why you thought it just couldn’t coincide together? Like, because of like this assumption that that was happening. okay.

Leah (08:22)

Exactly. Like that there was something about the weed in and of itself that made this impossible. But we know that’s not true simply because like there are plenty of people who can have an edible smoke weed, whatever, and not feel out of control. In fact, like my best friend in college and my roommate at the time, like I would be completely perplexed by her. Like we would get high together. It still feels rude to talk about all the podcasts. And she would just be like, interested in other things. And I was interested in like the chocolate-covered blueberries that were like on top of the fridge in the corner of our little dorm room. And so all these years later, I see that like, it wasn’t about the drug in and of itself. It was about my underlying disordered relationship with food kind of coming to the surface when I was in this altered state.

Julie Duffy Dillon (08:58)

Okay. yeah, tell me more about what made you connect those dots that it really was just like the thoughts and the disordered kind of connection with food, how that was coming to the surface.

Leah (09:24)

Yeah, so when you’re working in your relationship with food in a sober state, it’s like you learn all these things. It’s like scarcity leads to feeling out of control. If the food’s only allowed a certain amount of time, you think about it more, you’re more fixated on it, like sort of all these intuitive eating 101 things. And when cannabis is in the picture, there’s a whole other layer of like you know, it is a societally acceptable, like I can eat certain foods, like because it’s munchy foods and like we’re high and that’s what you do. There’s like a lot of discourse around like saving up eating for when high, because it’s like more pleasurable. So then you get the pendulum swing of like going into the experience really, really hungry and whacking in the other direction and then ending up over full. There’s this kind of certain foods being on a pedestal of like using the high as a permission slip to eat your favorite foods. But then if you want those foods when you’re sober, it feels like you can’t have them. So of course you’re going to gorge on them when you’re high because it’s like you’re feeling like, you know, I have to capitalize on this experience now until maybe I don’t use cannabis again until next weekend. And then I can’t have Ben & Jerry’s again until next weekend. So really, it’s like a lot of these things that are, you know, present with anyone healing their relationship with food, regardless of whether or not cannabis is part of your story, are there, but sort of like heightened by the cultural conversation around weed and how we interact with it. And there’s some things that overlap with drinking and that’s not my specialty, but you know, people will say like the drunk munchies like going to get pizza and whatever. And so this is, this is like, this is what I mean when I say like the underlying disorder can like really come to the surface in these moments.

Julie Duffy Dillon (10:53)

That makes sense. Yeah. Like it does remind me, and as I say this for the listener, like just because someone’s experiencing that, this may not make sense until I actually just say it. So just know that there’s not all of these assumptions, but it does remind me of someone who has permission to eat when there’s more activity planned, like there’s more exercise or I’m going to not eat for a while and then save up my calories for whatever. It seems like it’s kind of in the same kind of sphere. And again, just because someone maybe experiences this out of control eating sometimes when they’re high, it doesn’t mean that it’s the same as these other ones, but I could see how they could be if you also experience other ways where food kind of, food permission is like fucked around with in your brain. So, this is really helpful. And can you tell I’m processing in the moment? I’m like, it’s connecting. I see it. so it’s like, my gosh, diet culture is also fucked up with this too. You know, it’s gotten in the way of manipulating a person’s relationship with food also when they’re recreationally trying to experience something different.

Julie Duffy Dillon (12:34)

What can someone do then if they notice like, when I’m high, I binge eat? Like, what do you suggest to someone?

Leah (12:40)

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Such a good question. There’s so many tips. It really depends on where you’re at. Yeah, it depends on where you’re at your intuitive eating journey and healing your relationship with food. If you’re really new in the work, it could be like sort of a temporary option. And I do not think this is a long term solution to consider not eating while high, like, you know, intentionally eating before you get high or like or even pausing on using cannabis, because the momentum in the beginning can feel so important. It can feel so discouraging to have these experiences of binges. So if you’re really early on in your journey, could just, you know, you still have your training wheels on, you still have your intuitive eating training wheels on. And this is like advanced intuitive eating status as I see it to be able to navigate in this altered state. have objectively probably less practice hearing your body’s cues. And the metaphor I like to use is like, when you’re listening to your body cues in a sober state, that’s like your first language. You’re like, yep, I know that link, you know, eventually. And then when you’re in an altered state, like under the influence of cannabis, it’s like, you can still kind of make sense of the cues, but it’s like, it’s like a strong accent or dialect where you’re like, hmm, am I hearing that correctly? Like I have to pay more attention and slow down.

Julie Duffy Dillon (13:45)

Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Leah (14:01)

So this could be something you do in the beginning, but I’m not at all here to be like, surprise. The answer to this is don’t smoke or eat before you smoke because I so hear that like that’s not for most people that’s like shit advice. It’s like, all right, well, this is part of my life.

Julie Duffy Dillon (14:10)

Yeah, it’s too black and white in a sense. So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s doesn’t feel real world enough. And so much of what you’re saying though, too, I think can even be used before even navigating that. the way I heard you in the beginning was leading with permission. if you do binge eat or you feel yourself getting out of control with food while high, like it’s a, It’s information. this is information that your body’s giving you, your mind is giving you. And this is why I was getting so mad when I was like letting it all process in my brain. I’m like, damn, the diet culture has like invaded this too. Because, you know, this could be insight that you would have a harder time getting to when not high. And then you get to this information. And then again, it’s like deemed this horrible thing and that you’re doing it wrong when it’s really your body. is trying to mend your relationship with food. It’s trying to eat enough. And this is, yeah, why not start with permission too? And that’s also something, as I say, and I’m like, that’s not the easiest option because of the world we live in. But if I had the magic wand out, I would be like, okay, why not have permission and just notice and gather that insight? yeah, I don’t know what you think about that.

Leah (15:11)

Yeah, totally. that’s kind of like a core tip here is like, look at what foods you’re feeling out of control around when high and give yourself permission, which again, easier said than done can be like lifelong work, but give yourself permission to eat those foods when sober. you know, it’s like Ben and Jerry’s is always coming out. I don’t know. Again, I went to college in Vermont. Ben and Jerry’s was a big deal. Then it’s like, OK, well, what would it look like for you to have Ben and Jerry’s on a random Tuesday afternoon where maybe, know, between class or, you know, after a meeting or something. And what that can do for your brain is like, this isn’t just the special thing that’s only allowed when you’re, you know, in this altered state and there’s like a socially acceptable excuse to eat like quote unquote, like munchy foods. This is a food that’s allowed any time, therefore you don’t have to gorge yourself on it when you are in this, you know, altered state. So that’s one of the biggest tips is incorporate your high foods when sober. And that’s like, again, the earlier tip might be don’t eat when high or eat before smoking to help you like not feel discouraged. But again, that’s not long-term. If weed is part of your life, you probably don’t really want to hear that. And so then from there we go to, okay, can we look at incorporating the high foods once sober?

Julie Duffy Dillon (16:45)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I can see how that replication and then working on the permission when not high, like how that would eventually be able to be, what’s the word I’m looking for? Like it would make sense then when high too, like, I can have that anytime. So there would be like less of a pull for it. You know, there are some people that I’ve worked with over the years where their cannabis use was a way for them to disconnect. And I would imagine, especially in the year of 2025, we have a lot of reasons to want to disconnect, maybe even disassociate. What if that’s a person’s motivation to using cannabis and then they see how it’s impacting their relationship with food? I don’t know, do you have any insight for that?

Leah (17:47)

Yeah, that is a common reason why people use cannabis to disassociate. And this brings up a good point about like to the question of like, what are some tips for dealing with this? One thing I recommend is actually getting clear on your motivation, like your why, like why do you use weed? So it like even just naming like this is a shit year, I need to disassociate can be helpful to bring some intention behind it. And that’s okay. And like, maybe maybe your attention to something else. But if you know your intention, then you can keep coming back to it and being like, okay, is this serving the purpose? Is this is this, you know, still supporting me and in like what I’m looking forward to do. But yeah, if it’s specifically your motivation is disassociating.

It can be hard because so much about this work is staying in your body, staying with your body so can hear its cues when it’s time to stop, when you’re proud enough. So if you know that your motivation is to disassociate and also you tend to eat past comfortable fullness when high, first of all, validating like that makes sense because, you know, disassociating emotionally can also come with disassociating from body cues. And the tip I have there is using logic, know, intuitive eating, dynamic interplay of instinct, emotion, logic, and kind of turning on logic a little more loudly in these cases and being like, okay, I want to disassociate emotionally, but I also want to eat and I don’t want to feel sick. So I’m going to need to kind of remind myself to check in more here. And that might look like kind of a more mechanical relationship with your body cues and intuitive eating than it might look when you’re sober. But being like, Okay, are we still enjoying this? Is it still tasting good? You know, how are we feeling in our body? Like doing more of those, again, like mechanicals, the word that’s coming up for me, checks, because you know I’m trying to disassociate emotionally, yet I’m still trying to like keep a finger on the pulse of my body’s cues.

Julie Duffy Dillon (19:36)

Yeah. I think you’re highlighting why this could be tricky if you’re newer to non-diet work because there is so much of this process of being in the moment and then reflecting back. I don’t know if Evelyn and Elise still use the anthropological kind of perspective. That’s how I remember them teaching intuitive eating voice to me was like, maybe you have like your golf narrator voice where you’re like, he’s going up to the T and he’s swinging like everyone’s so calm and just narrating. And it’s something that ends up making it feel just like annoying in a sense like the mechanical kind of having to process moment to moment and stay in the moment. And again, if you’re wanting to check out for a little bit, it’s it’s a lot. Yeah. So I would imagine that this would take And again, in the world we live in with like the diet industry and like white supremacy being a charge of all that, the thing that we’re going to like fix everything right away is you’re not going to, and this is going to make it even harder, right? This is going to make it slow down.

Leah (21:01)

Exactly. Right. And what I like to say is like, you are going to have so much more practice with anti-diet work, to defeating work in a sober state. For most of my clients, like they’ll have like a weed gummy on the weekend or something. So it’s like, great. You have, you’re practicing one day a week with your needs went high. It reminds me of like some clients, you know, women or folks who menstruate would be like, oh, like things just feel wacky when I’m on my period. It’s like, yeah, you have less practice. you know, maybe four five days, maybe a week a month where you are communicating with your body’s cues in that state, it makes sense. It’s going to take longer. And that’s what it was for me. Intuitive healing has been a part of my life for 10 years. And for the first, I don’t know, three of those years, maybe it was like things were great, went sober, went high, not so great. And like it took longer for that piece to heal because there wasn’t information like this out there, you know, that doesn’t help. But even if there was, like you’re saying, we can’t just like expect like these things to be so quick.

Julie Duffy Dillon (22:04)

No, it takes so much time. And I’ve never met anybody who’s been able to repair the relationship with food as quickly as they think they should. It takes so much time because it’s not like we live in a world where everyone else is walking around with a relationship with food where everything is easy peasy. No, we’re constantly going back into the world and being re-traumatized. So yeah, it’s going to take some time. I wonder too, this is kind of like a different topic, but.

Leah (22:13)

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Julie Duffy Dillon (22:33)

I’m wondering if in your experience or in your clients’ experiences, if the experience of doing intuitive eating work while sober and then comparing it to when they’re not sober, like I wonder if there’s information that comes up when high that’s different, like, this is an area I need to work on. that, tell me more about what you’re…

Leah (22:49)

Yeah, there is. Yes. yes. I love that question. Yeah, there is. Because being high, way I think of it is like, this is not like a scientific way I’m about to explain this, but this is how it resonates with me. It like shuffles up the neural pathways in your brain. And something that can be so hard about this work is if you’ve been dieting for decades or hating your body for decades, those neural pathways are so deeply entrenched. And what I think about being high, it’s almost more like a, it just like gives the brain an opportunity to like try on a new thought of like, ooh, like what if like there was literally nothing wrong or unattractive about being a higher weight or like, huh, like what if I like wasn’t a bad person if I ate this cookie? it really, what I’ve seen and also experienced first hand can create this opening. And yeah, I have had clients, you know, bring back insights from being in that altered state. And by the way, I’m never like sitting here recommending that someone should start using weed if it’s not already part of their life. But more specifically with insights about like, interoceptive awareness of like, whoa, like I really felt the water go down my throat. And it’s like, I can almost feel it like permeate my cells, which for some people can be anxiety inducing because you’re like, the interoceptive awareness is too intense. you’re, I’m feeling my heart beat. I’m feeling the blood move. Like that can be a lot for some people. But for some folks that’s also been supportive of like really visualizing like the, what’s going on in their body and the way it things can be like nourishing them and, know, moving around the body. And also a lot of body image insights, again, of just like, huh, this is my body. Like more like kind of just like. opening for neutrality. Yeah, the biggest thing I can say is I feel like it sort of gives an opportunity to try on new neural pathways and makes it a little easier and a little less resistance to send the neuron down that path that isn’t as deeply rooted as the ones that your brain has traveled multiple times a day, every single day for probably decades.

Julie Duffy Dillon (24:53)

I love this conversation so much. I don’t think I’ve ever shared this on the podcast before. But something that’s really meaningful for me is, you know, as I’m doing my creative type work in this space, I get like blocks sometimes. And what I have found to be one of the best blocks are like things to help me get unblocked is listening to live music. It doesn’t matter where I am or what kind of music it is. Like it can be really any kind of music live. But if I let myself just get in it and feel the vibration of the music around me, and especially there’s other people there. There’s something about my extroverted side, I think that kind of sucks up the energy of other people around me, but it allows me to do so much great creative work. So I mean, I thank God for the notes app on my phone because so much

Leah (26:00)

Yes.

Julie Duffy Dillon (26:02)

I know you said that you’ve been reading my book. There’s a couple sections in the book where I specifically sought out live music to help me get through certain parts. At the beginning of one chapter, I talk about someone packing a suit or bringing in a heavy suitcase to a session and unpacking it together. And it has a lot of metaphor and stuff like that. when you were talking about someone using cannabis and how it can kind of help their neuro pathways. And maybe you’re someone who’s like, I don’t know if cannabis is for me. There are lots of different ways to do this. I also meditation doesn’t do it as much as live music for me. But you know, if I can’t get to some live music, I’ll try meditation too. But yeah, like if there’s a way to help your brain just like, gently look in the other direction for a moment to consider the possibilities. I’m like, I love that because sometimes it all it takes then to move your relationship with food to a place where it’s safer and yeah, you can move so much further away from the diet industry as the reason to keep you sucked back in. You can get far enough away from it that you can be better protected. So yeah.

Leah (27:20)

Totally. Yeah, like we were saying, like, could be live music. For some people it’s movement. For some people it’s like sitting in a coffee shop, like, and, you know, it could be so many things, but yeah, like this, this like core piece of serving this purpose of kind of getting you out of like your deeply entrenched patterns and like giving you a little space to see things differently is so valuable.

Julie Duffy Dillon (27:25)

Yes, yeah, movement. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And how shitty is it that like the instinct is like, I’m such a bad person for having the munchies and eating this Ben and Jerry’s, it’s getting in the way of you having the ability to consider something different that actually could be really wonderful. And I would say that for all those other like, modalities that we’re talking about too, like the coffee shop and movement and any of these other ways that we can help our brain just consider another option. So yeah, if you hear the creeping in of the diet industry when you are experiencing these different neuro pathways, tell it to fuck off. That’s what I had.

Leah (28:09)

Yeah. Yeah, you have more interesting things to do with your time while you’re under the influence.

Julie Duffy Dillon (28:30)

You do. Well, yeah, exactly. And I think what you said earlier was really important, too, to remember what’s your motivation for using it. don’t let the industries that have so much intention to harm us and to keep us quiet and small, don’t let them fuck with this, too.

Leah (28:53)

Yeah, I’d love to share a really quick client story if it’s OK about the intention. So when I was working with, she was like an edible weekend kind of person. And then eating would happen. She’d feel out of control. it would ruin kind of the experience for her. And so upon looking at what’s my intention, she was so clear for her. It wasn’t dissociation. It wasn’t creativity or any of these other you know, pain relief, there’s so many reasons. For her, it was helping her relax. It would really help her like switch into this brain of like, we’re gonna relax, not like necessarily dissociative relaxing, but just like vegging out. And I asked her like, when you eat when you’re high, is it relaxing? And she was like, no, like, I’m like, I’m like, wait, like, was I really hungry? Was I not? Like it just like caused her to like be in her head so much. And she was like, we actually think I would rather eat before and like do other things while I’m high to really relish in the relaxation. And it was that question of like, what’s your intention that helped her kind of shift it to like, like maybe this doesn’t even actually fit together just because societally everyone’s like, you get how you eat. That’s what you should do. That’s how you make the most of it. Doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what works for you based on your very personal intentions.

Julie Duffy Dillon (30:04)

Yeah. Yes, yes. I’m so glad that you brought that story in. I think that’s important. If someone wants to find out more about you, tell us about your podcast and where people can find you.

Leah (30:32)

Yeah, totally. So I have a podcast, it’s called Shoulders Down. There’s a couple of episodes on this topic. There’s so much more to say, honestly. It’s like, it’s a very nuanced-ish topic. And there’s also a few blog posts that if you Google like cannabis and intuitive eating should come up. leokernard.com and Shoulders Down is the podcast.

Julie Duffy Dillon (30:41)

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on the show and being the first person to actually like dive in and talk about it on my podcast. So thank you.

Leah (31:05)

Yeah. Thanks, Julie.

Julie Duffy Dillon (31:08)

So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Leah Kern. And next week, the podcast is going to be featuring a letter from the Find Your Food Voice book. So I haven’t been doing as many Dear Food letters on the podcast. If you go way back, like that’s what every single episode featured was a letter from a listener, just like you, who was describing their complicated relationship with food. And I would answer it. I would have a guest on and sometimes it would just be me. So that was the foundation for the Find Your Food Voice book, is I wanted every single chapter to also have a letter. So I’m gonna pick out one of those letters so you can hear it, and then I’m going to do it the old-fashioned way. I’m going to go ahead and answer that letter, so you get a little sneak peek of the book, but you also get to hear some advice that you may also find helpful. By the way, if you have not sent a letter in, I do wanna include more letters. I just need more of them. So you can send them over to me at Julie at JulieDillonRD.com All right, so I look forward to getting back in your ears next week with that letter to food, but until next time, take care.